What's next. Trident

[Vasyl]

This trident maple is planted on a rock that is probably too small for the tree and will have to go at next repot. This is the first tree that I've ever grown from a seed and I don’t want to mess up. I am trying to come up with a plan for it for the next growing season but have too many doubts and too little experience. So, should I:
1. Move to a larger box or leave it be for another year? (Growing in ground is not an option for me now)
2. Chop the trunk or wait?
3. Repot in dirt or bonsai soil?
Thank you for any feedback

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

When you say on a rock do you mean root over rock style or as a means to keep the root base flat? Everything else depends on your future plans fot the tree
I'd for sure work the roots next spring and maybe shorten some branches. If broom style is your plan and the desired trunk thickness has been reached I'd repot in bonsai soil and start on ramification

 

[Vasyl]

When you say on a rock do you mean root over rock style or as a means to keep the root base flat? Everything else depends on your future plans fot the tree
I'd for sure work the roots next spring and maybe shorten some branches. If broom style is your plan and the desired trunk thickness has been reached I'd repot in bonsai soil and start on ramification

I planted it on a rock for root over rock tree but realize that the rock is too small. I am thinking about formal upright - chop and start forming a taper. Although I should probably thicken the trunk a little

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I would be tempted to create an informal broom, rather than formal upright. I would have the trunk split to 2 sub-trunks, then grow a length, then both split to 2 further sub-trunks, then the branching arches outward from there. - but that is my taste. You have a nice straight trunk, you could do a formal upright. You don't have much movement, an informal upright might end up looking pretty static.

How tall do you want it to be when done? Your trunk should be 1/10th to 1/2 the diameter of the height. The greater the diameter relative to height, the older the tree will appear. I would shoot for the diameter to be somewhere between 1/4 to 1/3 the height of the ''finished'' tree.

Is the trunk at or within 75% of the diameter you would like for a finished bonsai? If yes, then repotting and chopping and training can begin. If not, you still need it to grow, in which case a larger box might be required.

So decide if you have the trunk diameter you need, and only you can decide, you are the one who will be training the tree.

 

[Vasyl]

I would be tempted to create an informal broom, rather than formal upright. I would have the trunk split to 2 sub-trunks, then grow a length, then both split to 2 further sub-trunks, then the branching arches outward from there. - but that is my taste. You have a nice straight trunk, you could do a formal upright. You don't have much movement, an informal upright might end up looking pretty static.

How tall do you want it to be when done? Your trunk should be 1/10th to 1/2 the diameter of the height. The greater the diameter relative to height, the older the tree will appear. I would shoot for the diameter to be somewhere between 1/4 to 1/3 the height of the ''finished'' tree.

Is the trunk at or within 75% of the diameter you would like for a finished bonsai? If yes, then repotting and chopping and training can begin. If not, you still need it to grow, in which case a larger box might be required.

So decide if you have the trunk diameter you need, and only you can decide, you are the one who will be training the tree.

I am thinking of a tree about a foot tall. That means I should let it grow for at least another year. I will try to keep my hands off it and find another tree to pactice on. Maybe I will start training a juniper instead. Thanks, Leo.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

It is very refreshing to see a trident that doesn't have a trunk shaped like a triangle

looking forward to watching you develop this one!

 

[Vasyl]

It is very refreshing to see a trident that doesn't have a trunk shaped like a triangle

looking forward to watching you develop this one!

What would you do with it? Just curious about other people's vision

 

[Deleted member 21616]

What would you do with it? Just curious about other people's vision

let me start by saying that i have no hands-on experience whatsoever in working with trees at this stage of development.

i attached a photo with a sketch of the image that came to mind when i first saw the photo of your tree. it's a quick rough sketch, of course (edit: i think the sketch is about half the height it should be, LOL)

I think the lower-left branch of your tree is interesting, although I would slow down it's thickening as much as possible for as long as possible while (if) you grow out the trunk.

I would chop the main trunk, having chosen a new leader. Ideally, in my view, it would be interesting if the new leader could lean slightly to the right (away from the first primary branch).

I would personally try to direct the silhouette of the foliage toward the general silhouette of Walter Pall's late deshojo, although you would be working with a different, maybe denser, branch structure. (I mirror-flipped Walter' photo, by the way). For your tree, there would be a strong lower branch as opposed to a second trunk. There are many many examples out there that illustrate this structure, i just happened to be studying walter's tree at the moment and had this photo handy.

I attached two other photos taken from here: http://bonsailearningcenter.com/2015/04/trident-maple/

One of these is the 'triangle trunk' that I personally do not find interesting. There are members on this forum who specialize in 'triangle trunks' (@Bananaman), so i want to specify that this is a matter of subjective personal taste, not objective assessment. (As an aside: i tagged Al here because he is, in every respect, infinitely more qualified to guide you when it comes to tridents, or when it comes to anything else in bonsai for that matter. I would follow anything he says without hesitation).

The other photo is a twin-trunk of sorts. this is more my taste -- the keyword, again, being taste.

 

[just.wing.it]

That's weird looking bark on that trident...
If it was mine I would go hard on the roots in early spring and start building a better nebari and rootbase....probably Ebihara method.
Then after a few years, of nebari construction I'd do a trunk chop and start building primary branches.

 

[Bananaman]

One of these is the 'triangle trunk' that I personally do not find interesting. There are members on this forum who specialize in 'triangle trunks' (@Bananaman), so i want to specify that this is a matter of subjective personal taste, not objective assessment.

Could you explain what this means. If you mean triangle shaped tree I get it, but none of my trunks are triangle???

 

[Deleted member 21616]

Could you explain what this means. If you mean triangle shaped tree I get it, but none of my trunks are triangle???

i attached some pics from your site. again just a question of personal taste, and i am open about the fact that myown taste is very young and therefore not very developed

the first two pics are what i mean by 'triangle trunk', given how the short the distance is over which the trunk goes from a wide base to a narrow tip. by contrast, in the third pic the transition from a wide base to a narrow tip occurs over a much greater distance

i am admittedly drawing a bit of a caricature here

based on what i see very often in person and online (and again, my exposure is limited), when i think 'trident' i immediately think 'triangle trunk'. this is why, in my initial post on this thread, i said that i thought shape of @Vasyl trident was refreshing.

when i was asked what my 'vision' for the tree would be, i responded sincerely. If i had a trident, it would be important for me to avoid triangle shapes trunks. again, this is just a matter of personal taste

as I mentioned, I tagged you in particular in the post because when it comes to tridents, you and your website are my first go-to place for facts and experience.

 

[Bananaman]

i attached some pics from your site. again just a question of personal taste, and i am open about the fact that myown taste is very young and therefore not very developed

the first two pics are what i mean by 'triangle trunk', given how the short the distance is over which the trunk goes from a wide base to a narrow tip. by contrast, in the third pic the transition from a wide base to a narrow tip occurs over a much greater distance

i am admittedly drawing a bit of a caricature here

based on what i see very often in person and online (and again, my exposure is limited), when i think 'trident' i immediately think 'triangle trunk'. this is why, in my initial post on this thread, i said that i thought shape of @Vasyl trident was refreshing.

when i was asked what my 'vision' for the tree would be, i responded sincerely. If i had a trident, it would be important for me to avoid triangle shapes trunks. again, this is just a matter of personal taste

I think the word you are looking for is "Sumo" coined by Mike Page in 1986. Mike is a good friend of mine and sadly not into bonsai as much as he used to be, due to health issues and age. But, never the less, it is a very popular style in Japan and should not be looked upon as something out of the ordinary bonsai mainstream. If you don't like the style, I respect your opinion. But it should not be looked upon as something undesirable in the bonsai world. there is something for everyone. I would hope that your opinion of me and my work is not colored by a particular style that I love. I love Technical bonsai in the vain of Kunio Koybayashi, not really a fan of Walters work. But I see no reason to come to a forum and criticize his work. He works hard to make his bonsai look lazy, I respect that.

In the "shohin" sub category of bonsai Sumo is a very recognized and desired shape. Sumo is a term in this case meaning massive taper, much like a sumo wrestler. Except going the opposite direction. I moved towards the shohin size of trees about 20 years ago and love them very much, and yes I do like building these powerful looking trees. It take a tremendous amount of technique to make them and anyone who owns one from nothing to Sumo is to be commended on their prowess. I have delicate styled maples of trident, and palmatum in my collection as well and love both for different reasons.

Some upright single trunk maples. All Shohin.

 

[Bananaman]

Some of the fatter boys.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

@Bananaman i appreciate you taking them to write - this is literally all new to me, so thank you!

except for the fact that your own style was not limited by sumo trees. I knew you had a broad range

again I appreciate you detailing all of this, including its reception, desirability and history. thank you!

i expect my tastes to change and evolve as they do for most things. this will help!

 

[just.wing.it]

@Bananaman, dang....you got some agressive moss action on some of those...
Looks cool, but is it ever a problem for your trees?

 

[Bananaman]

@Bananaman, dang....you got some agressive moss action on some of those...
Looks cool, but is it ever a problem for your trees?

What kind problem would there be? The misnomer that somehow moss is bad for a tree because it will rot the tree? If the tree were dead you would be correct. It would rot out very quickly due to the captured moisture on the dead wood creating a rot scenario just like on your house where leaves may pile up on a roof line, causing problems on the dead wood ( building materials).

But living trees do not rot because of water. They can die in an anaerobic environment like being submerged with out oxygen, but living tissue does not do this. Moss lives on trees in the forest for decades or even a hundred years without harm. I do in fact leave the moss on some of the trees I am trying to get bark on. In fact many people will tie moss sheets or rags to their trunks to encourage the roughening up of the bark. The encapsulated moisture on the bark causes it to swell and crack and after drying in the summer can look awesome.

Ain't you glad you asked now!!! Happy Turkey day!!

Mount Madonna forest between Gilroy and Santa Cruz California.

 

[just.wing.it]

What kind problem would there be? The misnomer that somehow moss is bad for a tree because it will rot the tree? If the tree were dead you would be correct. It would rot out very quickly due to the captured moisture on the dead wood creating a rot scenario just like on your house where leaves may pile up on a roof line, causing problems on the dead wood ( building materials).

But living trees do not rot because of water. They can die in an anaerobic environment like being submerged with out oxygen, but living tissue does not do this. Moss lives on trees in the forest for decades or even a hundred years without harm. I do in fact leave the moss on some of the trees I am trying to get bark on. In fact many people will tie moss sheets or rags to their trunks to encourage the roughening up of the bark. The encapsulated moisture on the bark causes it to swell and crack and after drying in the summer can look awesome.

Ain't you glad you asked now!!! Happy Turkey day!!

Mount Madonna forest between Gilroy and Santa Cruz California.

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Happy Thanksgiving Al!
You make valid points.
I'll just tell you what I've read...
They say moss will metabolize the bark.
I don't think this will kill or rot a tree...but it could mess up some nice bark on an old pine or something that has desirable bark characteristics.
I suppose it does look cool and the tree is always producing new bark as it grows anyway.
I do appreciate your input!

 

[Bananaman]

Happy Thanksgiving Al!
You make valid points.
I'll just tell you what I've read...
They say moss will metabolize the bark.
I don't think this will kill or rot a tree...but it could mess up some nice bark on an old pine or something that has desirable bark characteristics.
I suppose it does look cool and the tree is always producing new bark as it grows anyway.
I do appreciate your input!

I think what messes up the nice bark is the REMOVAL of the moss when found undesirable. Especially if you use a stiff wire brush. You would put undue stress on the craggy bark and break off flaky bark. I agree that would be a mess. Maples and elms are all smooth so no problem. Don't get me wrong I do remove it. I'm just not a fanatic like some. I got things to do and for the sake of the photo's did not spend an hour or two removing moss for the photos!!!

 

[Bananaman]

I'll just tell you what I've read...

This is from AL, not Smoke, nor Bananaman...

Reading about bonsai is not all it's cracked up to be. I think more harm comes from reading about bonsai (for the last ten years) than doing bonsai.

The internet has just about ruined the ART of bonsai.

Sorry, Al

 

[just.wing.it]

This is from AL, not Smoke, nor Bananaman...

Reading about bonsai is not all it's cracked up to be. I think more harm comes from reading about bonsai (for the last ten years) than doing bonsai.

The internet has just about ruined the ART of bonsai.

Sorry, Al

I hear that!
Thanks much!