When are crossing branches allowed?

[ElyDave]

So, crossing branches, an absolute no-no, or are they?

We are all generally told, no crossing or inward pointing branches. But are there any circumstances in which crossing branches are permissable?

Dip into the fruiting forum for more info tomorrow.

 

[ShimpakuBonsai]

On twisted junipers crossing branches is a lesser problem IMO.

 

[rockm]

There's no "rule" against crossing branches. Leave them if you want. Most times, however, they confuse the tree's overall design.

 

[Lorax7]

In general, in the visual arts there is only one rule:
Does it look good?

Bonsai has a few more rules than other visual arts, but is still mostly rooted in that first rule. The only other rules bonsai has that absolutely cannot be broken are things like: Can the tree survive and thrive after you’ve done whatever you’re doing to it? Is what you did to the tree today still going to look good in 5, 10, 20 years from now when the tree has grown?

 

[GGB]

I’m a fan of crossing branches in small doses. It think they make forest plantings or large deciduous look more natural. Obviously if they are too high in number it just looks like a hedge, I think it’s up to the artist

 

[Tieball]

Crossing branches can be located where ever you want them. Create for yourself and build the tree image you want to see developed. Some crossing branches end up in the future not being crossed at all as normal pruning and dieback occur. That perfect tree following all the rules is a lot of times less interesting….everything is to predictable…to static….and lacking an emotional attraction.

 

[BobbyLane]

Too many crossing primary branches usually looks wrong, a mess, confusion on deciduous trees, once you get into the finer ramification and twigging as in the secondaries and tertieries its generally fine and more natural.
Note I didnt say all primaries. You can decide yourself what looks good through experience, tastes.

 

[ElyDave]

So here's why I was asking, a rescued prunus (apricot I think, she just planted any seed from fruit she ate) that has some majorly crossing branches that to me enhance the aesthetic as a windswept design.

I rescued this from my late mother in law's garden, where it had grown through the bottom of it's pot and had a massive, but one sided canopy. I root pruned, put it in a smaller pot and removed as much canopy as I thought necessary to both keep it alive and fit it in my car. Three weeks later, it's showing great vigour, back budding at every point I pruned.

 

[bonsaichile]

So here's why I was asking, a rescued prunus (apricot I think, she just planted any seed from fruit she ate) that has some majorly crossing branches that to me enhance the aesthetic as a windswept design.

I rescued this from my late mother in law's garden, where it had grown through the bottom of it's pot and had a massive, but one sided canopy. I root pruned, put it in a smaller pot and removed as much canopy as I thought necessary to both keep it alive and fit it in my car. Three weeks later, it's showing great vigour, back budding at every point I pruned.

View attachment 489237


View attachment 489240
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If you are going for a windswept design, maybe you want to consider chopping off that first branch that grows straight up, lowering it perhaps to that first branch that follows the visual flow of the rest of the tree.

 

[R0b]

Not sure if you should go windswept but that is up to you.

To me the issue is less about the crossing but that there are two straight parallel branches that also don’t fit the right movement of the tree.

 

[BobbyLane]

Thick, crossing primary branches with no taper are not desirable or do they enhance the aesthetic in a convincing windswept design. This tree needs to be cut back much harder IMHO. The primary branches and the subtrunks are too thick and long. Have you looked at any good windswept trees?

'The windswept form is one of the most difficult forms to portray as a bonsai though is often one attempted by beginners for it s dramatic features.' https://bonsai4me.com/styling-the-basic-forms-of-bonsai/

see how hard the primaries have been cut back here, note, none of them are really crossing, some of the fine twigging is though, but its not confusing at all, its pretty convincing.


If it was my tree, id be gathering images of prunus bonsai, prunus apricot and mume in similar forms, to get some ideas from. Might even be suited to something with a deadwood feature in it

 

[rockm]

So here's why I was asking, a rescued prunus (apricot I think, she just planted any seed from fruit she ate) that has some majorly crossing branches that to me enhance the aesthetic as a windswept design.

I rescued this from my late mother in law's garden, where it had grown through the bottom of it's pot and had a massive, but one sided canopy. I root pruned, put it in a smaller pot and removed as much canopy as I thought necessary to both keep it alive and fit it in my car. Three weeks later, it's showing great vigour, back budding at every point I pruned.

View attachment 489237


View attachment 489240
View attachment 489239View attachment 489241

The future bonsai in this tree is NOT in the extending right hand branch.

It is in the branching directly above the trunk. Chop that right hand branch off at the trunk and develop the top of the tree. Will make a very nice informal upright. The is already decent ramification and taper present in the top extension.

Windswept is not easy to do, even with a decent candidate. This tree is not even close to being a good candidate for that style. You'd be wasting a really good tree trying to force it into a bad windswept.

 

[ElyDave]

Being clear here, nothing has been decided in terms of styling yet, this is a rescue at this point. I'll be doing nothing but letting it recover this year, and maybe start structural work over the winter/spring.

 

[BobbyLane]

Sure, id still be looking at good trees, of the same species for inspiration.

 

[ElyDave]

Thick, crossing primary branches with no taper are not desirable or do they enhance the aesthetic in a convincing windswept design. This tree needs to be cut back much harder IMHO. The primary branches and the subtrunks are too thick and long. Have you looked at any good windswept trees?

'The windswept form is one of the most difficult forms to portray as a bonsai though is often one attempted by beginners for it s dramatic features.' https://bonsai4me.com/styling-the-basic-forms-of-bonsai/

see how hard the primaries have been cut back here, note, none of them are really crossing, some of the fine twigging is though, but its not confusing at all, its pretty convincing.
View attachment 489243

If it was my tree, id be gathering images of prunus bonsai, prunus apricot and mume in similar forms, to get some ideas from. Might even be suited to something with a deadwood feature in it

These are my existing prunus examples, informal upright with some deadwood, and a group of three both around 25 years old, the group is now in a smaller cloud-shaped pot from this training pot, and the rhs extension on the myrobalan plum has been shortened

 

[ElyDave]

The future bonsai in this tree is NOT in the extending right hand branch.

It is in the branching directly above the trunk. Chop that right hand branch off at the trunk and develop the top of the tree. Will make a very nice informal upright. The is already decent ramification and taper present in the top extension.

Windswept is not easy to do, even with a decent candidate. This tree is not even close to being a good candidate for that style. You'd be wasting a really good tree trying to force it into a bad windswept.

Windwept is not easy to do, therefore don't even try. Your presupposition of the outcome is pretty closed-minded.

So how do you propose people learn how to do hard things?

 

[Clicio]

Windwept is not easy to do, therefore don't even try. Your presupposition of the outcome is pretty closed-minded.

So how do you propose people learn how to do hard things?

I guess we just meant "don't try with this one". It's really not suitable, but still a good material to be developed into a bonsai.

 

[BobbyLane]

Theyre good examples of someone's trees who doesnt like cutting much off even if it makes a better quality tree. Many of the primary branches are way too long and have no taper.
Ill leave you to get on with it, going by your replies youre pretty set in your ways.

These are my existing prunus examples, informal upright with some deadwood, and a group of three both around 25 years old, the group is now in a smaller cloud-shaped pot from this training pot, and the rhs extension on the myrobalan plum has been shortened

View attachment 489299View attachment 489305

 

[ElyDave]

Theyre good examples of someone's trees who doesnt like cutting much off even if it makes a better quality tree. Many of the primary branches are way too long and have no taper.
Ill leave you to get on with it, going by your replies youre pretty set in your ways.

Hold on a minute there, read the posts.

"I root pruned, put it in a smaller pot and removed as much canopy as I thought necessary to both keep it alive and fit it in my car."

"nothing has been decided in terms of styling yet, this is a rescue at this point."

You seem to be a very judgemental audience today.

 

[Baku1875]

Hold on a minute there, read the posts.

"I root pruned, put it in a smaller pot and removed as much canopy as I thought necessary to both keep it alive and fit it in my car."

"nothing has been decided in terms of styling yet, this is a rescue at this point."

You seem to be a very judgemental audience today.

honestly from getting to know these guys, they mean well. Just take them as suggestions from people with experience, and make your own choices with that in mind.

Direct communication is underrated these days. Don't take offense, think about it, and then make your best choice according to your own future view for the tree. People come to this forum to get clear opinions as to what to do with their trees, and I think that the opinions were positive in terms of their intent.