When is a bonsai "junk"?

[Vance Wood]

Starting a new thread to discuss this subject.

On one hand, there are people who feel that we are doing a disservice to people by calling Home Depot stock and mallsai "nice trees". Most have critical issues that will prevent them from ever being nice trees, or at least, the time and effort would yield better results with different starting material.

On the other hand are the people who feel that ANY tree has the potential to be a decent bonsai - no matter how poor the starting material is. Therefore, they focus on guiding the tree forward - not in being critical to the extent of telling someone to toss the tree.

Which is the healthier path to take for the purpose of growing interest in bonsai in your home market?

The answer to the core question; When is a bonsai junk, the answer is when you think it is junk. Think about it. The beginner thinks everything is a potential bonsai, the intermediate thinks only certain pieces are potential bonsai, the so called mature and experienced think collected and commercially cultivated material alone are worthy. The master knows when to pick and choose from every where, everything is fair game but some are likely to be better than others. Remember the term Masterpiece is made up of two words; Master and piece. A Masterpiece does not automatically emerge out of so called world class material.

I once saw a beautiful piece of raw material chosen for an on line demonstration turned into junk by the fumble handed efforts of the presenter.

 

[daniel]

Hey Chris,
Although I think most will agree with your concerns about nursery/home depot types of stock, I see them as great for training purposes, doesn't cost you a whole lot and gives one an opportunity to practice the basic's of design, shaping, fertilizing, repotting....etc. Many in our newly formed club just love to grow things, and learning about bonsai seems like a natural path.
However despite the above, we have encouraged our club members to purchase a Boxwood from a local Boxstore supplier for our May meeting, they may never grace the halls of an exhibition........ but we'll get years of practice and fun out of them. We also have the opportunity to buy pre bonsai from one of the senior members, who has a large and wonderful collection of Mountain hemlock and lodgepole pine.
Cheers Gman

I agree 100%, Gman. Couldn't have said it better.

I've reacted harshly to a few people who have just simply said your stuff is crap, or something to that effect. This really turned me off to even having people look at my stuff. I love to learn, do, and have people help when I ask, but if you're just going to say it's rubbish and that's it, save the oxygen for the rest of us. (BTW--most have not been that way, but there are several who have. No, Harry, it's not you...yet! )

Daniel

 

[milehigh_7]

Hey Chris,
Although I think most will agree with your concerns about nursery/home depot types of stock, I see them as great for training purposes, doesn't cost you a whole lot and gives one an opportunity to practice the basic's of design, shaping, fertilizing, repotting....etc. Many in our newly formed club just love to grow things, and learning about bonsai seems like a natural path.
However despite the above, we have encouraged our club members to purchase a Boxwood from a local Boxstore supplier for our May meeting, they may never grace the halls of an exhibition........ but we'll get years of practice and fun out of them. We also have the opportunity to buy pre bonsai from one of the senior members, who has a large and wonderful collection of Mountain hemlock and lodgepole pine.
I've got a lot of urban collected trees but I don't label them bonsai, but all of them have an unusual character and add to the garden landscape.
Cheers Gman

Thank you. This is precisely my point. The "junk" tree in question may never be an show quality work of art but it is far from useless. No experience in life is useless to the one who is able to learn. It is this point that MUST be made. The student must learn to select material that reflects the goal they would like to attain.

Using the boxwood mentioned above as an example. Does a rank beginner know how a boxwood responds to root-work? Do they know aggressively they can prune? How far can I bend the branches without breaking them. These types of things are really only learned by working with a boxwood. Why practice on a 50 year old collected boxwood? Doing so would not just be a bad idea, it would be fatuous.

This has NOTHING to do with sugar coating or being truthful. It has to do with how to intelligently guide someone to the best practices possible.

You oh so helpful "your tree is junk" folks need to accept the full responsibility of instructing if you want the privilege of providing input to others. When you volunteer your opinion, you should be willing to help the person become better or keep your opinion to yourself. A significant portion of teaching is motivating and encouraging. Again, these things have no bearing on the level of firmness with which you instruct.

When I coach (especially really young kids) the FIRST thing I demand is that they look in my eyes when I talk. I drill that into them and it pays dividends. It is about fundamentals. I am extremely firm when coaching. I demand it be done my way or the person can sit and watch.

When studying Karate, the first thing is to learn how to make a fist correctly. You don't learn this by starting with sparing you are not ready to spar. You must master basic things first.

Personally I don't want to learn how to "make a fist" on a $500 tree.

 

[greerhw]

Hi, I'm new to bonsai and I got this tree on ebay for 7.95, any suggestions on how to style it, any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Newbie

 

[subnet_rx]

Hi, I'm new to bonsai and I got this tree on ebay for 7.95, any suggestions on how to style it, any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Newbie

Hi Newbie, I'm a master in Bonsai and have had my bonsai featured in media all over the world. You'll never reach my level and neither will that tree. I come out of the womb knowing exactly what material was going to be a masterpiece, and you clearly cannot even begin to fathom the knowledge it takes to do that. Bonsai not only requires intelligence and time, but also money. If you had any, you wouldn't have bought a tree for anywhere under $1000. I would encourage you to relist that tree on eBay, and enjoy your future career in the fast food service industry. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to get back to taking pictures of me with my priceless trees.

 

[milehigh_7]

Hi, I'm new to bonsai and I got this tree on ebay for 7.95, any suggestions on how to style it, any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Newbie

Hello Newbie and welcome to Bonsai!

I have taken the time to work up a little virtual that will encourage and assist you in styling this tree.

Please don't come back until you have taken out a second mortgage on your home to pay for real material you worthless puke!

 

[Smoke]

Hi, I'm new to bonsai and I got this tree on ebay for 7.95, any suggestions on how to style it, any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Newbie

Nice tree Harry!

...but...Marco's gonna kick your ass whan he comes back next year.

 

[Smoke]

There is telling the truth and being an ass. You might be saying the same thing but often it is HOW you say something.

While many of you are fantastic at bonsai you are missing the point regarding how you communicate with others.

The other fact regarding when Harry grew up is, if you were an ass, you got your teeth bashed in. This made for significantly more polite people then and would still work today. In today's world we seldom settle things the old fashioned way.

As someone who has been a coach since the late 80's you don't teach, mold, or motivate by telling one of your basketball players, "your shot sucks" or one of your football players, "your tackling form is junk". This is not called being truthful it is called being an ass.

Wave your flag and toot your horn about how right you are to act this way all day long but it does not make you correct. It certainly does not make you a teacher.

While I do not believe that every tree can be a bonsai, what is important to ascertain (even guide a person to understand )when "helping" is the goal for a particular tree.

For me, many of my trees are merely to learn the basics of potting, pruning, shaping, and overall the horticultural skills necessary to be good at bonsai. Why would I practice on a $500 or more piece of stock when it is quite likely I will kill it? That is simply retarded.

Now the advice should be, "If you want to develop (or purchase for your collection) a "showable" bonsai, here are the best practices to achieve that goal." Part of the "best practices" would be to obtain the best stock possible and to realize that not doing this basic step will likely limit your success long term.

For example, becoming a good shooter in basketball requires a specific, detailed skill set and MUCH practice. If a person will not do these things, they will limit their success in basketball. It is a fundamental. Are there successful shooters with bad form? Yes but they are the very rare exception.

I could teach any of you to be a good shooter if you would allow me to make subtle changes to your form and to encourage your progress. I would not be successful teaching you by telling you that you suck.

Being one that has been considered an ass a time or two I can speak from experience.

I can't think of one time I have ever been rude out of the box. For the most part I have been helpfull or just made a blanket statement that somthing should be done whatever that may be. It is usually subsequent posts either between the poster and my self or some self indulgent do-gooder that sticks their nose into someone elses business.

The internet community is very small, maybe 200-300 posters active every day. Many of them have huge archives of pictures of their trees. Many do not. Many have only an archive of information in which they have talked about over the years. A newbie should be researching the data available by search functions to find out a little about those that offer information. It is not that hard to spend 30 minutes of time to find the top ten posters, find the last 12 threads started by that poster and find a common theme in what they have to offer. If you really want sound information send out 5 PM's to those you find trustworthy with trees that are in a state that show they know what they are talking about.

Listen to what they have to say. Try the work they suggest. It's very reasonable to ask what a reasonable time frame would be to complete the work. This is such a no brainer I do not understand why this gets debated over and over.

Of course I can tell you why.... bonsai attracts ego's and ego's have a hard time being told what "really" needs to be done. It's been said here a couple times, "if you don't want to be told what you don't wish to do, then don't post it asking what should be done".

Al, Social Sledgehammer

 

[Marc S]

Hi Newbie, I'm a master in Bonsai and have had my bonsai featured in media all over the world. You'll never reach my level and neither will that tree. I come out of the womb knowing exactly what material was going to be a masterpiece, and you clearly cannot even begin to fathom the knowledge it takes to do that. Bonsai not only requires intelligence and time, but also money. If you had any, you wouldn't have bought a tree for anywhere under $1000. I would encourage you to relist that tree on eBay, and enjoy your future career in the fast food service industry. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to get back to taking pictures of me with my priceless trees.

lololololol

 

[milehigh_7]

Al,

Not trying to blow sunshine up your caboose but your posts are VERY instructional. With actual information that a person can learn from.

This is very different than someone with under a year of experience spewing from their piehole that another person's tree is junk with nothing more constructive to offer.

My point is that if you want to take on the responsibility of engaging a newbie, than you accept the responsibility to make a positive impact on the person, or at least try to do so.


As an amusing side note but somewhat related, there is a person on the bonsai forum that I frequented several years ago who always ran down newbies for mentioning the Karate Kid movie. He would go on and on about how he was tired of the stupid people who came to bonsai this way. This person was a large factor in my leaving that community.

I recently came across the following quote that made me belly laugh:

"... in 1991 my mother noticed how taken I was by the Bonsai in the film 'Karate Kid', and gave me a tree the following Christmas.

That is when my life changed.

That is when I decided to become a Bonsai master."


Care to guess who made this statement?

Follow this link to find out. Answer to my question

 

[greerhw]

Al,

Not trying to blow sunshine up your caboose but your posts are VERY instructional. With actual information that a person can learn from.

This is very different than someone with under a year of experience spewing from their piehole that another person's tree is junk with nothing more constructive to offer.

My point is that if you want to take on the responsibility of engaging a newbie, than you accept the responsibility to make a positive impact on the person, or at least try to do so.


As an amusing side note but somewhat related, there is a person on the bonsai forum that I frequented several years ago who always ran down newbies for mentioning the Karate Kid movie. He would go on and on about how he was tired of the stupid people who came to bonsai this way. This person was a large factor in my leaving that community.

I recently came across the following quote that made me belly laugh:

"... in 1991 my mother noticed how taken I was by the Bonsai in the film 'Karate Kid', and gave me a tree the following Christmas.

That is when my life changed.

That is when I decided to become a Bonsai master."


Care to guess who made this statement?

Follow this link to find out. Answer to my question

Hey, I've seen that guy.....

Harry

 

[greerhw]

Have I pissed off enough people for one day, so I can go rest . Thinking up these instructional posts wears me out and remember I'm not young, I need my rest.

Ciao,
Harry

 

[milehigh_7]

Have I pissed off enough people for one day, so I can go rest . Thinking up these instructional posts wears me out and remember I'm not young, I need my rest.

Ciao,
Harry

Ah Harry I can count on one hand the times you have pissed me off. I got over it real quick. Life is just way to short.

Have a nice nap.

 

[october]

For quite a few years, I have watched my bonsai teacher in workshop after workshop, having hundreds of trees brought to him continuoulsy that are basically, the sticks in pot scenario.. Many are newbies, just starting out, but there are also some that have been in it for a few years where their trees are only the next step up, from the sticks in pot. At which point, he will give the same attention to the person with a ficus stick as he would a exhibition worthy tree. I think for the most part to try to hold people's interest in bonsai. An early discouragement, may turn people away from the art.

Sometimes, I just sit in on the classes and people ask me questions and/or show me trees and ask my opinion. If the tree is truly a stick in a pot and they have not purchased it or do not own it. I usually tell them that it might be better to look for a tree with some movement or better branch placement. I may mention that they maybe unhappy with their initial selection after a couple of years.

The main factor here is something that I have said many times........ The problem is people entering bonsai at different levels of the art instead of learning them in the chronologically correct order... If one is to learn the 5 styles of bonsai, which is basically lesson 1, it would eliminate much confusion. A person would pic up a tree and think...hmmmmmmm This does not seem to match any of the 5 styles I just learned about, maybe I should look for something else.

Rob

 

[milehigh_7]

For quite a few years, I have watched my bonsai teacher in workshop after workshop, having hundreds of trees brought to him continuoulsy that are basically, the sticks in pot scenario.. Many are newbies, just starting out, but there are also some that have been in it for a few years where their trees are only the next step up, from the sticks in pot. At which point, he will give the same attention to the person with a ficus stick as he would a exhibition worthy tree. I think for the most part to try to hold people's interest in bonsai. An early discouragement, may turn people away from the art.

Sometimes, I just sit in on the classes and people ask me questions and/or show me trees and ask my opinion. If the tree is truly a stick in a pot and they have not purchased it or do not own it. I usually tell them that it might be better to look for a tree with some movement or better branch placement. I may mention that they maybe unhappy with their initial selection after a couple of years.

The main factor here is something that I have said many times........ The problem is people entering bonsai at different levels of the art instead of learning them in the chronologically correct order... If one is to learn the 5 styles of bonsai, which is basically lesson 1, it would eliminate much confusion. A person would pic up a tree and think...hmmmmmmm This does not seem to match any of the 5 styles I just learned about, maybe I should look for something else.

Rob

Bingo!

Rob I always love the way you explain things. This is what I have been trying to get at. It is not what you tell people but how you say it. The way you have outlined for us teaches the beginner to evaluate their own stock.

It seems we would get more mileage from doing this than tossing insults because we won't spend the time to teach.

 

[HotAction]

I'm a research nut, I never buy or start a project until I've done my research, heck I still take consumer reports. I wouldn't just pull into a auto dealership and say I'll take the red one. If newbies would just visit a club or lurk on some bonsai web boards for a while , this thread wouldn't be necessary. Two things you've heard all you life "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" and "you don't get something for nothing" although my dad was wrong about "money doesn't grow on trees". NEWBIES, if you read this, ask questions before you buy, please. Don't buy a stick then post a picture for comments, because if I'm hungover that day, I'm liable to tell what I think and the truth will set you free and I can once again be chastised by the teachers and the sugarcoat crowd for being rude, obnoxious,overbearing,elitist,socially unacceptable and a few others I can't put in print and runnng you away pouting from bonsai. Buy a green mound juniper, preferably a staked one and you won't be sorry,

Ciao,
Harry

Harry, you da man.

No where when I signed up here did it say i would have to teach anyone, nor that my replies to posts are a teaching instument.

In 12 years, you can turn a stick into a stick with branches. You can also turn good stock into great bonsai. I'll take great bonsai. See you there!

-Dave

 

[october]

Hello milehigh_7..One line my teacher says quite often is....." What I'd like to see". Whenever people bring their trees to him and ask questions and ask for opinions. He'll say.." Well, what I'd like to see"........Then, follow it up with what could make the tree better......Such as more movement in one area or letting a branch grow to get stronger etc.......

I complimented him on this line because it is one of the best ways to introduce knowledge in a completely neutral/friendly and informative method..

Rob

 

[milehigh_7]

Harry, you da man.

No where when I signed up here did it say i would have to teach anyone, nor that my replies to posts are a teaching instument.

In 12 years, you can turn a stick into a stick with branches. You can also turn good stock into great bonsai. I'll take great bonsai. See you there!

-Dave

No you do not have to teach or help, but when you engage someone who is looking for advice, you then accept that role. I you have nothing to offer don't pretend you do. I am not sure who is impressed by unhelpful blather but it is not me. Maybe the assumption is made that you want to be a big dog someday you have to try to sound like one now.

There are people who enjoy teaching, let them answer all the stupid newbies that you have come to despise over the years you have been in the art.

 

[HotAction]

Daniel, Sorry, I was drinking when i said your tree was "junk" I suck at typing on this damn laptop. I can't explain things well via the internet. I feel like since you have been here (1 month) you have started alot of threads looking for info that is out there. When you search for it, not only do you find what you are looking for, you find additional information too.

All posts started by Daniel: http://bonsainut.com/forums/search.php?searchid=224576

My first encounter with you (I believe) http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1833
-Not so much as a thankyou for taking the time to help you with a P.O.S. tree
-Didn't really care what any of the people actually trying to help said
-Then claimed you knew the answer to the original question in the first place
-Then called us hijackers

So...If anyone wants to judge my saying it straight to daniel without a cherry on top go ahead. Just would have been wasting my breath explaining it anyway.

my "rude post to daniel" http://bonsainut.com/forums/showpost.php?p=25149&postcount=3

-Dave

p.s. it does get nutty up in here.

 

[daniel]

...For some reason the assumtion has been made that people are telling people that their trees are junk and thats that. I havent really seen any of that...

Then you really haven't looked hard, now have you?

I've had it happen to me on two separate occasions on this forum and I have lost the will to post any pics up because of it. I will continue to read and see what info is on here and other sites, ask questions of my informal teacher and find answers in books, etc. But I find beauty in natural-looking trees, not just trees that look like a chic on a dance floor that has thrown her hip out. (If you're wondering what that looks like, exactly, see the pic below.)

Daniel