Neli
Omono
That is now classified as caliandra and is not really a true mimosa.
When is a bonsai "junk"?
- Thread starter Bonsai Nut
- Start date
That is now classified as caliandra and is not really a true mimosa.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Don't think so. The tree under discussion is, as noted in my post, albizia julibrissin...see, for example:
http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/PlantFinder/PlantFinderDetails.aspx?kempercode=a848
You are correct that it is not a true mimosa.
Chris
Neli
Omono
Chris you are right. I know that many albisias are renamed now calliandra. I did not notice the compaund leaf since it looks very similar to Caliandra também and perfumada.
armetisius
Chumono
Okay?
I have read this thread through and would like to comment; however, there is just so much, where to start?
Initially, "now imagine you have an ugly child"--no such critter. To any "parent" objectivity is as common as "hen's teeth". Simple as that__especially while still a child. On the outside we, those of us with a purely aesthetically objective outlook, wonder if they know their child "bears a striking resemblance to a Gremlin?" Same way with some plants.
I will be re-working the front of my parents house this spring. There are some common forsythia there that were planted in 1975 and will NOT be left, or included, in the rework. BUT they will be moved to another spot or perhaps a large growing flat just to see whats there; WHY? Because these particular plants were: 1) rooted from my deceased aunt's plants and 2)they are the very first "outdoor" plants I ever rooted. Sentimentality? yes Overly so? possibly. However, I prefer to look at it as "respect due" by virtue of their impact on my life. Without the joy I remember feeling at lifting those pitiful sticks and seeing fabulous white beards on all of them, I doubt I would have kept interest in growing anything more than the "typical kitchen patch" garden. And as much pleasure as I have received from horticulture, and its study/experimentation, would have been sorely missed.
Secondly, in an ideal world, we would all have a sensei readily available, an outrageously active club locally, and enough nurseries producing fabulous base material to work with at affordable prices in every town, and all the time we desired to work on them. [Wake up--hope you enjoyed the short dream] However the reality is most of us don't have any of those things. We make due, adapt, we use variations of what we read about, we experiment and (somehow) find what works for us both aesthetically and growing technique wise. This is the way that discoveries and innovation develop and are a noble effort in their own endeavor even if only to teach us "what not to do next time". As they grow like weeds here, I chose to learn wiring technique on common privet. Ultra-thin barked, especially when young, very unforgiving when it comes to "not checking regularly" for biting in. And if I snapped a branch off? Big deal it is a weed who cares, certainly not me. But it did give me an opportunity to learn on something that wasn't of any consequence to me. And probably saved more than a few maples, elms, and pines [all common here] a LONG & TORTUOUS existence before an equally gruesome death by fire at the frustration of it being "all ruined" already.
Trees that cannot be bonsaied? don't you think that maybe that is all about point of view as well. No one who has ever seen many bonsai sites hasn't seen a mume in flower; however, in summer-all wrapped up in new growth shoots-before the thinning-etc. I think they are one of the ugliest bushy "plain janes" around. Same way with some of the other trees. Oaks have notoriously large leaves, few would dream that they reduce as well as they do, but for me the best time of the year with a bonsai oak is at the bud break in spring. Something about all that old rugged barked tough looking twigs sprouting the bright intensely colored sometimes fuzzy sprigs that is well just life affirming. Yes that phase is here and gone in a wink but aren't we as well? I would not attempt a Sycamore or a Tulip poplar as bonsai; however, to someone else the intense spring green unfolding from the bud sheath may make it "worth the effort" for them. Yes there are "standards and criteria" for bonsai and no one will say that some of the sticks that are out there will EVER be great bonsai. But to some of us, your standard be danged. I enjoy the seedlings I dug years ago that are just now getting heavy enough to be bothered with just as much as you will enjoy the maintenance of your $35K purchase. It is all a different part of the path on the journey and what one enjoys. For me, having nothing to do but candle cut and needle pull would make me want to open a vein. But someone else would consider hiking the hills/woods looking for yamadori about as appealing as a reservation for the seventh level of hell.
Lastly, I would say just my two cents worth but I feel I have yacked enough that your got a quarter. Hope I didn't offend anyone but -- just the way I see it.
I have read this thread through and would like to comment; however, there is just so much, where to start?
Initially, "now imagine you have an ugly child"--no such critter. To any "parent" objectivity is as common as "hen's teeth". Simple as that__especially while still a child. On the outside we, those of us with a purely aesthetically objective outlook, wonder if they know their child "bears a striking resemblance to a Gremlin?" Same way with some plants.
I will be re-working the front of my parents house this spring. There are some common forsythia there that were planted in 1975 and will NOT be left, or included, in the rework. BUT they will be moved to another spot or perhaps a large growing flat just to see whats there; WHY? Because these particular plants were: 1) rooted from my deceased aunt's plants and 2)they are the very first "outdoor" plants I ever rooted. Sentimentality? yes Overly so? possibly. However, I prefer to look at it as "respect due" by virtue of their impact on my life. Without the joy I remember feeling at lifting those pitiful sticks and seeing fabulous white beards on all of them, I doubt I would have kept interest in growing anything more than the "typical kitchen patch" garden. And as much pleasure as I have received from horticulture, and its study/experimentation, would have been sorely missed.
Secondly, in an ideal world, we would all have a sensei readily available, an outrageously active club locally, and enough nurseries producing fabulous base material to work with at affordable prices in every town, and all the time we desired to work on them. [Wake up--hope you enjoyed the short dream] However the reality is most of us don't have any of those things. We make due, adapt, we use variations of what we read about, we experiment and (somehow) find what works for us both aesthetically and growing technique wise. This is the way that discoveries and innovation develop and are a noble effort in their own endeavor even if only to teach us "what not to do next time". As they grow like weeds here, I chose to learn wiring technique on common privet. Ultra-thin barked, especially when young, very unforgiving when it comes to "not checking regularly" for biting in. And if I snapped a branch off? Big deal it is a weed who cares, certainly not me. But it did give me an opportunity to learn on something that wasn't of any consequence to me. And probably saved more than a few maples, elms, and pines [all common here] a LONG & TORTUOUS existence before an equally gruesome death by fire at the frustration of it being "all ruined" already.
Trees that cannot be bonsaied? don't you think that maybe that is all about point of view as well. No one who has ever seen many bonsai sites hasn't seen a mume in flower; however, in summer-all wrapped up in new growth shoots-before the thinning-etc. I think they are one of the ugliest bushy "plain janes" around. Same way with some of the other trees. Oaks have notoriously large leaves, few would dream that they reduce as well as they do, but for me the best time of the year with a bonsai oak is at the bud break in spring. Something about all that old rugged barked tough looking twigs sprouting the bright intensely colored sometimes fuzzy sprigs that is well just life affirming. Yes that phase is here and gone in a wink but aren't we as well? I would not attempt a Sycamore or a Tulip poplar as bonsai; however, to someone else the intense spring green unfolding from the bud sheath may make it "worth the effort" for them. Yes there are "standards and criteria" for bonsai and no one will say that some of the sticks that are out there will EVER be great bonsai. But to some of us, your standard be danged. I enjoy the seedlings I dug years ago that are just now getting heavy enough to be bothered with just as much as you will enjoy the maintenance of your $35K purchase. It is all a different part of the path on the journey and what one enjoys. For me, having nothing to do but candle cut and needle pull would make me want to open a vein. But someone else would consider hiking the hills/woods looking for yamadori about as appealing as a reservation for the seventh level of hell.
Lastly, I would say just my two cents worth but I feel I have yacked enough that your got a quarter. Hope I didn't offend anyone but -- just the way I see it.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I don't think that the fundamental meaning of this question was to sort out the esoteric values of a tree based on information known only to the grower. You can't put value on something like that where that value is not transferable, it is therefore, for all intents and purposes, value-less.
The purpose of this discussion, though fraught with multiple opportunities for disagreement, is essentially dealing with the artistic or aesthetic values, or potential for the same, from a particular piece of material. The claim that the tree was grown by a favorite Aunt, though important to you, does not make it valuable to me as a bonsai or as a plant with bonsai potential.
There are trees that the majority of the bonsai community will agree as being bad for bonsai can at times be proven to be good for bonsai but those events do not happen often.
The purpose of this discussion, though fraught with multiple opportunities for disagreement, is essentially dealing with the artistic or aesthetic values, or potential for the same, from a particular piece of material. The claim that the tree was grown by a favorite Aunt, though important to you, does not make it valuable to me as a bonsai or as a plant with bonsai potential.
There are trees that the majority of the bonsai community will agree as being bad for bonsai can at times be proven to be good for bonsai but those events do not happen often.
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
Given the general definition of Bosai...
1. The art of growing dwarfed, ornamentally shaped trees or shrubs in small shallow pots or trays.
2. A tree or shrub grown by this method.
Junk becomes an opinion based on application...
At this time after moving(and giving away a LOT of stock) I am guessing there are about 10 very nice Bonsai here by the Community Standards and not by simple definition. We have about another 15 trees in pots that we "thought" might have potential. The 15 or so remain potted and are what we call decorative. By definition they are Bonsai but will never be anything more then very nice decorative trees to us. Are they "junk"? Not by any means, and still by definition they are Bonsai... When the Gardens here are completed next year I will be working in the decorative with the "Good" and am certain it will be pleasing to the eye. In the years to come I have decided that I will only be adding finished or close to finished trees and only work on 7 to 10 "experimental" each season and weed out regularly rather then amass what I gave away again.
No Living plant is "junk" IMHO...
Grimmy
1. The art of growing dwarfed, ornamentally shaped trees or shrubs in small shallow pots or trays.
2. A tree or shrub grown by this method.
Junk becomes an opinion based on application...
At this time after moving(and giving away a LOT of stock) I am guessing there are about 10 very nice Bonsai here by the Community Standards and not by simple definition. We have about another 15 trees in pots that we "thought" might have potential. The 15 or so remain potted and are what we call decorative. By definition they are Bonsai but will never be anything more then very nice decorative trees to us. Are they "junk"? Not by any means, and still by definition they are Bonsai... When the Gardens here are completed next year I will be working in the decorative with the "Good" and am certain it will be pleasing to the eye. In the years to come I have decided that I will only be adding finished or close to finished trees and only work on 7 to 10 "experimental" each season and weed out regularly rather then amass what I gave away again.
No Living plant is "junk" IMHO...
Grimmy
Neli
Omono
I think the most important thing is for Us not to forget that a bonsai is supposed to be pleasing to its owner first. What the reason behind that is, it does not matter. But if you ask for an opinion and someone tells you that it qualify for best in show for the ugliest bonsai, dont get offended. It is a relative, though objective opinion.
And second...we do this for fun...and as long as it makes you happy, that is what matters most.
And be happy, even with a stick in a pot! Trees has the magic to do that.
And second...we do this for fun...and as long as it makes you happy, that is what matters most.
And be happy, even with a stick in a pot! Trees has the magic to do that.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
"Junk" is a moving target.
Some will never call any plant junk. For most it is "skill and level appropriate" and changes with the artists progress as their taste become more discriminating.
Face it, some people are content with backyard bar-b-q...others crave 5-star restaurant accommodations & fine dining. With pets (say dogs), some are happy with shelter rescued mutts, others want/need an AKC pure breed & compete.
In both examples, all are okay and appropriate--same with bonsai.
=========================
A drift from the question but here is my list of what I consider undesirable for bonsai and I steer away from...
1. Palms
2. Bamboos/grass
3. Succulents
4. Trees with large leaves (that don't reduce to less than 2" or less). Some may also be displayed only for their winter silhouette, in that case big leaves may be okay.
Note that a redeeming quality may make me reconsider. Also, I am fine with these for houseplants and I have some but not for bonsai.
Some will never call any plant junk. For most it is "skill and level appropriate" and changes with the artists progress as their taste become more discriminating.
Face it, some people are content with backyard bar-b-q...others crave 5-star restaurant accommodations & fine dining. With pets (say dogs), some are happy with shelter rescued mutts, others want/need an AKC pure breed & compete.
In both examples, all are okay and appropriate--same with bonsai.
=========================
A drift from the question but here is my list of what I consider undesirable for bonsai and I steer away from...
1. Palms
2. Bamboos/grass
3. Succulents
4. Trees with large leaves (that don't reduce to less than 2" or less). Some may also be displayed only for their winter silhouette, in that case big leaves may be okay.
Note that a redeeming quality may make me reconsider. Also, I am fine with these for houseplants and I have some but not for bonsai.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You are of course correct but you are arguing over semantics. By the way, have you ever been infected by a healthy dose of Poison Ivy, poison Oak, Poison Sumac or some other toxic plant?
But to continue a direct response to your above remarks. You wrote: "In the years to come I have decided that I will only be adding finished or close to finished trees and only work on 7 to 10 "experimental" each season and weed out regularly rather then amass what I gave away again."
The concept of Junk is based on what you have just said you would do. You are culling the herd.
bonsaibp
Omono
One mans garbage is another mans treasure.
I don't know how many trees I've seen on raffle tables that the owner thought was junk only to be won by someone newer who was thrilled. What we may consider great today could be thought of as junk later as we learn and the reverse can also be true-though not as often.
I don't know how many trees I've seen on raffle tables that the owner thought was junk only to be won by someone newer who was thrilled. What we may consider great today could be thought of as junk later as we learn and the reverse can also be true-though not as often.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I'm experimenting with a couple of tulip poplars. They're both 3 year old saplings, though, so it'll be at least 5-10 years before I'll have any idea whether anything can be done with them. Going to dig one up this spring to see what the roots look like and how they handle root pruning and transplanting. Have never seen one of these as a bonsai and have only read of a couple of attempts.
Also playing around with a black locust, which in 2 years in the ground has gone from a 1/2" thick sucker to a 4" base monster. Will be chopping this spring and then digging for root work next year. Have no idea if it can be tamed (or how it will respond to a trunk chop), though I have seen photos of a couple that were used as bonsai.
I have no interest in sycamore but am pretty sure I've seen one or two on the forums. They do develop nice bark.
Chris
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
True. And there are various reasons why people buy those "culled" trees from the raffle table. For instance, at our summer picnic last year someone was selling a sweetgum (liquidambar styraciflua) they'd been working on. Not a very good specimen, decent roots and lower trunk but the branching is iffy as is the apex. However, I was thrilled to get it as a practice tree. I'm planning to use it to figure out how to control ramification and leaf size while another specimen I'm developing in the ground matures. Eventually, the one I purchased last summer may either go into the ground for further development or back onto the raffle table for someone else to learn from.
Chris
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
What you need to do with that tree is experiment with it. Try treating it like a Japanese Maple. In the spring when it buds out and puts out two leaves pluck the growing tip out of each branch. This may cause it to ramify with smaller leaves. A lot of the time people will take on a tree like this and when it does not do what they want it to do they kind of stop trying to get it to do that. Most of these trees will not develop the way we want without our intervention, constant intervention.
armetisius
Chumono
Exactly my point
I completely understand the point of the post and understand fully both sides of the discussion. However, I do feel that perhaps you missed the point of my post. The value of the tree IS dictated by its owner and whatever he/she sees in it. Aesthetically, by the ideal, we--or at least 99.9% of us--would have been executed if there were some "artistically ideal culling" of the human species. And, though some would argue to the contrary, we are all beautiful in our own way and variation of the "ideal". I feel it is the same with a tree. At no point did I say that any of my material/plants would have any "value" to anyone else just that I am, and others should be, secure enough in my decisions on what works for me to not care what anyone else sees/or not in one of them. I grow plants/trees for my own enjoyment and I have posted some truly ugly trees mainly to illustrate the extent that bad can reach. And if someone else sees any beauty in something I am growing so much the better. But if not? I really honestly and truly could not care less. So long as my trees give me pleasure someone else's "ideals" don't even enter the thought process. It is the journey I enjoy regardless of its "value" to anyone else.
Value is completely objective as well. The privet I see as a weed because it grows everywhere here has value as a hedge to someone else. [if anyone wants some with bases as big as my waist come quick and bring a winch] After all when you remove all the "value" that the "majority" of a community places to the contrary a jeweler is still nothing more than a scrap metal and gravel dealer.
I completely understand the point of the post and understand fully both sides of the discussion. However, I do feel that perhaps you missed the point of my post. The value of the tree IS dictated by its owner and whatever he/she sees in it. Aesthetically, by the ideal, we--or at least 99.9% of us--would have been executed if there were some "artistically ideal culling" of the human species. And, though some would argue to the contrary, we are all beautiful in our own way and variation of the "ideal". I feel it is the same with a tree. At no point did I say that any of my material/plants would have any "value" to anyone else just that I am, and others should be, secure enough in my decisions on what works for me to not care what anyone else sees/or not in one of them. I grow plants/trees for my own enjoyment and I have posted some truly ugly trees mainly to illustrate the extent that bad can reach. And if someone else sees any beauty in something I am growing so much the better. But if not? I really honestly and truly could not care less. So long as my trees give me pleasure someone else's "ideals" don't even enter the thought process. It is the journey I enjoy regardless of its "value" to anyone else.
Value is completely objective as well. The privet I see as a weed because it grows everywhere here has value as a hedge to someone else. [if anyone wants some with bases as big as my waist come quick and bring a winch] After all when you remove all the "value" that the "majority" of a community places to the contrary a jeweler is still nothing more than a scrap metal and gravel dealer.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Sometimes someone else's junk becomes someone else's junk---again. LOL. However I obtained this Dwarf Mugo in 1985. I potted it up in 1986 and it almost died. Two Years in bonsai comma.
Attachments
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks for your suggestions. I had received the following advice from Brent Walston regarding developing ramification and smaller leaves on liquidambar styr: (1) remove large terminal buds in early spring (2) defoliate completely after first set of leaves harden (3) remove larger leaves that follow. Also keep it "tight" in the pot.
Looking forward to seeing how it responds. Tree needs repotting and rootwork this spring, that's for sure.
Chris
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