grouper52
Masterpiece
Funny, I don't know any fools in West Texas, and no wise man in the Seattle area. You must be addressing this to the other "Will".
And Rick, what you laughing at?
When is a bonsai "junk"?
- Thread starter Bonsai Nut
- Start date
Funny, I don't know any fools in West Texas, and no wise man in the Seattle area. You must be addressing this to the other "Will".
And Rick, what you laughing at?
TreeKiller64
Mame
And After reading all the 9+ pages of this post, I have to disagree is some aspect and agree with others.
I've been at it (bonsai) for about 20 yrs, some will say I've wasted my time by looking at my trees.
I've used both " Home Depot" and "Mallsai" trees as a learning toll to help hone my skills. I've lost alot and kept alot alive too.
My disagreement with this post is this:
I do believe that a greater portion of "Plant Material" has potential for being great bonsai.
I feel this, because if you look at some of Walter P's trees in the early years, and didn't realize that they are Walter's,,,,, I feel that most whom give their "Masterful" opinion of the disposal of said trees ( Junk-It Toss-it etc.),,, well, we'd all be screwed. take pict # 1 of a tree I read a few years ago that Walter posted in another forum, ( I Liked and still do the Tree) I remember Walter got Crap because it wasn't to "Bonsai Standards" but he shrugged it off and now what does he have???? #2
So why do we always discourage those of little or no knowledge of Bonsai let alone horticulture principles?
Does it make us feel any better?
I try a different approach when confronted with the same 2-bit Home Depot Material.
I ask (or usually) what did or do they see in this plant?
Do they know what kind, Species of plant this is?
What are this/the plants needs?
and the most important!!!!
Are they willing to follow-up on this plant material's needs?
"I usually reserve the Toss_it, It's Crap! thing for more seasoned veterans of bonsai.
I try not to discourage the art of Bonsai from anyone,,, because not everyong will become Bonsai Masters.
Sometimes I feel the "Tossit, It's Crap Crowd , come from the same Self-pity mold.
Let me know what you think??
Sincerely,,,
Kevin J
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Daysleeper
Sapling
As a newb, I'd want people to be brutally honest. There is no ego here to hurt because I know nothing. If someone tells me that my tree looks like Joan rivers anus and explains why, I'd do the research to confirm and treat it as a learning experience.
Ha, I just read this today from that dude from Italy. I think it was on his website? How weird! Ya the quote is pretty lame but he's good, so I guess he can say cheesy crap.
Dude, you got issues....
What if I said I knew of 2 other apprentices in Japan right now that got hooked on bonsai from those movies?
Lets see your masterpieces, your awards....oh wait.....
Daysleeper
Sapling
Having an apprenticeship in Japan does'nt mean you will be good. The only thing good about that is getting a massage at the maid cafes in Akihabira.
HotAction
Chumono
TreeKiller,
My opinion of the tree you posted, is worthless, for I am a noob. But, I think Walter agrees. Not the best, to say the least. It was originally posted in a picture contest with strict rules. I believe it was the only one that qualified from his collection. The time between photos is about 23 years. Check Walter's Blog, he has progressions of many trees, with some having 4 seasonal pics/year for years.
Some of the progress made in 5-10 years is amazing.
I'm 28, and hope to have a good bonsai by 33. I plan on collecting yamadori, and trading, not buying. (unless trading for money is accomplished at some scale)
This will not be accomplished via cuttings, and sticks. This is a simple truth.
I will take cuttings from time to time, I am sure. Then maybe I'll thread graft it back to the parent one day. Most, I will probably share with local bonsai freinds that don't have the land resources I do.
I have purchased in my life from landscape nurseries(or anywhere): 2 boxwood w/ 2" trunks($7.50@), 2 Sargeants Junipers and a "nana" for $1.50 a piece last fall. That is all I have bought. One buxus shows some promise, and the nana may have a shot: to quote Rush, "Living in the limelight, the universal dream for those that wish to seem. For those that wish to be, you must put aside the alienation, get on with the fascination, the realization, the underlying theme." Poor little "nana" THESE ARE NOT MY BEST TREES BY ANY STRETCH OF IMAGINATION. Only the ones I spent money on.
Since this is my first growing season, I plan to focus on Larix laricina. I was lucky enough to be gifted one that was one of those "sticks"~20 yrs ago. I don't plan to do anything drastic to this tree, as it was froma respected freind of the family. He was into bonsai in the early 90's and fell out of the hobby. This tree was the last of his collection and he gave it to me to care for along with all his tools and pots. It will never be a GREAT bonsai, but it can be good, and for this tree, I feel that is good enough. I would like to show it to him in 5 years and maybe respark his interest. Also I have collected another 11 larch this spring. 2 definite specimens, and the rest for a future forest and practice. My main intention is to master this species first.
I will dabble with other species that I may happen to collect while working on Larch. NE natives that show promise will be most likely added year by year focusing on a new species, as I progress. Essentially adding it to my repetoire/collection.
This is my plan for the first 5-10 years in this exiting hobby.
-Dave
(p.s. I may have been on the sauce while typing this post)
My opinion of the tree you posted, is worthless, for I am a noob. But, I think Walter agrees. Not the best, to say the least. It was originally posted in a picture contest with strict rules. I believe it was the only one that qualified from his collection. The time between photos is about 23 years. Check Walter's Blog, he has progressions of many trees, with some having 4 seasonal pics/year for years.
Some of the progress made in 5-10 years is amazing.
I'm 28, and hope to have a good bonsai by 33. I plan on collecting yamadori, and trading, not buying. (unless trading for money is accomplished at some scale)
This will not be accomplished via cuttings, and sticks. This is a simple truth.
I will take cuttings from time to time, I am sure. Then maybe I'll thread graft it back to the parent one day. Most, I will probably share with local bonsai freinds that don't have the land resources I do.
I have purchased in my life from landscape nurseries(or anywhere): 2 boxwood w/ 2" trunks($7.50@), 2 Sargeants Junipers and a "nana" for $1.50 a piece last fall. That is all I have bought. One buxus shows some promise, and the nana may have a shot: to quote Rush, "Living in the limelight, the universal dream for those that wish to seem. For those that wish to be, you must put aside the alienation, get on with the fascination, the realization, the underlying theme." Poor little "nana" THESE ARE NOT MY BEST TREES BY ANY STRETCH OF IMAGINATION. Only the ones I spent money on.
Since this is my first growing season, I plan to focus on Larix laricina. I was lucky enough to be gifted one that was one of those "sticks"~20 yrs ago. I don't plan to do anything drastic to this tree, as it was froma respected freind of the family. He was into bonsai in the early 90's and fell out of the hobby. This tree was the last of his collection and he gave it to me to care for along with all his tools and pots. It will never be a GREAT bonsai, but it can be good, and for this tree, I feel that is good enough. I would like to show it to him in 5 years and maybe respark his interest. Also I have collected another 11 larch this spring. 2 definite specimens, and the rest for a future forest and practice. My main intention is to master this species first.
I will dabble with other species that I may happen to collect while working on Larch. NE natives that show promise will be most likely added year by year focusing on a new species, as I progress. Essentially adding it to my repetoire/collection.
This is my plan for the first 5-10 years in this exiting hobby.
-Dave
(p.s. I may have been on the sauce while typing this post)
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HotAction
Chumono
Oh yeah...and at the rate of the Hibiscus rosa sinensis, I would be 51 before I had a not so good bonsai with pretty big red flowers. Something to think about.
-Dave
-Dave
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
I miss milehigh_7
Anyone heard or have news of him?
(Dual purpose post...revive old interesting thread & inquire about milehigh_7)
Anyone heard or have news of him?
(Dual purpose post...revive old interesting thread & inquire about milehigh_7)
fourteener
Omono
A great skill that seems to be diminishing culture-wide... the ability to sort. The ability to sort trash from treasure, need from want, better from best is a systemic problem in my personal view. That this issue creeps into households and hobbies is no mystery to me. The best thing you can do to your bonsai bench is to sell off the bottom 10% and get something or develop something that belongs in the top 5% of your collection.
That requires sorting. One thing is nicer than another. The best things I keep, the lesser things are just that, I don't mind seeing them go.
Right now I know of 5 trees for me to get rid of next spring. As for the original question...when is Bonsai junk? 15 years ago the bottom 10% of my stuff was junk to everyone. Now I figure my trash might be another man's treasure. It's the journey we're all on.
That requires sorting. One thing is nicer than another. The best things I keep, the lesser things are just that, I don't mind seeing them go.
Right now I know of 5 trees for me to get rid of next spring. As for the original question...when is Bonsai junk? 15 years ago the bottom 10% of my stuff was junk to everyone. Now I figure my trash might be another man's treasure. It's the journey we're all on.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
To me it boils down to value.
How much do you value your time & effort?
Do you value the time & effort or the enjoyment you get working on a tree?
Do you value the final tree or the fun you are having getting there?
Buying better stock is like buying time...it will help you get there faster BUT even the worst stock can become great given enough time and right skill set.
Honestly, had I known how expensive this hobby could be, I probably would have not started. Good thing that I had the belief then (and still do) that a rough nursery stock can be transformed into a bonsai. It would be a shame if someone is discouraged to do bonsai because they cannot afford "proper" stock.
I agree about teaching and developing the "eye" to spot what has potential and not...I think that is one of the best ways to help someone starting.
Note that even a world class bonsai can be turned into a "junk" by "the fool behind the tool". (and vice versa)
How much do you value your time & effort?
Do you value the time & effort or the enjoyment you get working on a tree?
Do you value the final tree or the fun you are having getting there?
Buying better stock is like buying time...it will help you get there faster BUT even the worst stock can become great given enough time and right skill set.
Honestly, had I known how expensive this hobby could be, I probably would have not started. Good thing that I had the belief then (and still do) that a rough nursery stock can be transformed into a bonsai. It would be a shame if someone is discouraged to do bonsai because they cannot afford "proper" stock.
I agree about teaching and developing the "eye" to spot what has potential and not...I think that is one of the best ways to help someone starting.
Note that even a world class bonsai can be turned into a "junk" by "the fool behind the tool". (and vice versa)
Neli
Omono
Yes there is bad and good material,
yes there is cheap and expensive material.
Almost every material suitable for bonsai cultivation can be turned into a nice bonsai. It all depends on how long you are prepared to wait.
Bonsai has a lot to do with hopes and dreams and having fun.
So it depends in what stage you are and what your objectives are.
Budget is a factor too.
I tried this ficus jinseng, just to see if anything good can come out of it.
When I bought it it had 2 fat roots only. After 3 years in the ground and ground layering it this is how it looks:
I have meanwhile injured the trunk and covered it with muck, hoping it will develop air roots that I can fuse to the trunk. If not I shall ground layer it again.
Every body says junseng is rubbish material. I hope to try and make something nice from this.
yes there is cheap and expensive material.
Almost every material suitable for bonsai cultivation can be turned into a nice bonsai. It all depends on how long you are prepared to wait.
Bonsai has a lot to do with hopes and dreams and having fun.
So it depends in what stage you are and what your objectives are.
Budget is a factor too.
I tried this ficus jinseng, just to see if anything good can come out of it.
When I bought it it had 2 fat roots only. After 3 years in the ground and ground layering it this is how it looks:
I have meanwhile injured the trunk and covered it with muck, hoping it will develop air roots that I can fuse to the trunk. If not I shall ground layer it again.
Every body says junseng is rubbish material. I hope to try and make something nice from this.
ABCarve
Masterpiece
I find that not only the "hopes and dreams" part appealing, but the memories are very important. Some trees I've had for 25 years, long enough that they are part of the family. Their histories are more of an appeal than their aesthetics.
This spring I will have a number of trees handed down to me as their owner can no longer take care of them properly. Some were started in the late 30's and now they are......shall we say.... in decline. Most can be rejuvenated back to health and restyled to match their past year's glory.....maybe. The important thing to me is the memories of the person who kept them so many years. The trees are an extension of them. This is what makes GREAT MATERIAL!!
I guess this is another stage of bonsai...when you've been doing it long enough to look back and wonder how they survived.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Started in the late 30's? I would really like to know the history of those guys. Outside of the Japanese community, in America, bonsai was unknown until after WWII. I would be interested in those trees very much, and the people who created them.
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
This is a Japanese maple, Acer palmatum, from a regular garden center. This is definitely junk. Just about everything is bad on this tree. It is clearly an example of what not to do. Why someone would bother to make a photograph escapes me.
Lousy nebari, big hole right in front, almost no taper. branches in very bad position, silly light bend in trunk. There MUST be better material in any garden center lot.
Lousy nebari, big hole right in front, almost no taper. branches in very bad position, silly light bend in trunk. There MUST be better material in any garden center lot.
Attachments
Eric Group
Masterpiece
How about this- make a list is trees species that are and are not "suitable" for Bonsai.
Off the top of my head, the list of those that are suitable would be quite long and I know of very few that are not... A few species of pine with exceptionally long needles perhaps... Some dwarf species that just never "trunk up" sufficiently to make a real masterpiece but most trees are able to be turned into bonsai right?
So from that perspective there should be very few examples of something that is truly junk!
Sure you will find specific examples of trees from a suitable species that will never be masterpiece works of bonsai art because of inherent flaws... I frequently think if Azaleasy like you see in nursery cans a lot who have the 500 little branches shooting up out the ground... But especially if we are talking about "sticks in a pot"/ SEEDLINGS, with a couple years you can grow them into a suitable tree usually...
Hey I spent the first couple years of my involvement with Bonsai working on "junk" and had some losses due to my own care issues, bad weather, thieves... But after I figured out a little better what makes a tree look older and what makes a nice Bonsai, I was able to put my busy scissor hands on hold and allow my "junk" to develop into much better stock for the most part! Now I have some pretty nice Maples and an ancient old nursery azalea that are just starting to get worked on again and the new material I add- I believe- has much more potential to become something much sooner...
So, maybe working on junk is a much slower process but I think with the proper care you can usually turn junk (again especially YOUNG/ seedling junk) into a decent tree eventually...
Is it easier and faster and are the end results better if you start with great stock? Oh ABSOLUTELY! My intent is going forward to try to focus more on quality pre bonsai when purchasing trees.. Just for the sake of this discussion I am interested to see what others consider junk. It seems most of the discussion has turned to how to break it to newbs that they HAVE junk... Not the identification of what makes it so bad.
Off the top of my head, the list of those that are suitable would be quite long and I know of very few that are not... A few species of pine with exceptionally long needles perhaps... Some dwarf species that just never "trunk up" sufficiently to make a real masterpiece but most trees are able to be turned into bonsai right?
So from that perspective there should be very few examples of something that is truly junk!
Sure you will find specific examples of trees from a suitable species that will never be masterpiece works of bonsai art because of inherent flaws... I frequently think if Azaleasy like you see in nursery cans a lot who have the 500 little branches shooting up out the ground... But especially if we are talking about "sticks in a pot"/ SEEDLINGS, with a couple years you can grow them into a suitable tree usually...
Hey I spent the first couple years of my involvement with Bonsai working on "junk" and had some losses due to my own care issues, bad weather, thieves... But after I figured out a little better what makes a tree look older and what makes a nice Bonsai, I was able to put my busy scissor hands on hold and allow my "junk" to develop into much better stock for the most part! Now I have some pretty nice Maples and an ancient old nursery azalea that are just starting to get worked on again and the new material I add- I believe- has much more potential to become something much sooner...
So, maybe working on junk is a much slower process but I think with the proper care you can usually turn junk (again especially YOUNG/ seedling junk) into a decent tree eventually...
Is it easier and faster and are the end results better if you start with great stock? Oh ABSOLUTELY! My intent is going forward to try to focus more on quality pre bonsai when purchasing trees.. Just for the sake of this discussion I am interested to see what others consider junk. It seems most of the discussion has turned to how to break it to newbs that they HAVE junk... Not the identification of what makes it so bad.
Neli
Omono
double posted
Neli
Omono
Yes Walter Darling, People need to learn how to chose better material at nurseries. I believe one needs to make mistakes in order to improve. It is called school fees.
It takes time and determination to learn a lot about bonsai. For me learning is fun...for some people a chore.
But theoretically speaking, even that can be turned into good tree with time, effort, and expertise, The question is do you have this factors, or are you willing to waste time on it.
Theoretically almost any tree can be turned in to a reasonable bonsai. But is it worth the effort?
I think as learning material...to prove a point (like me)...to just have fun and enjoy it (one mans poison is....)...and any other consideration that makes it worth your while...it is fine.
Who am I to judge?
One more thing:
For many of us our trees are our babies...to us they are beautiful. They might not look good to other people but for specific reasons they look fantastic to us. It can even be just sentimental reason. If you just give me a stick from your garden ...something you dont consider anything...I would be a happy girl and treasure it to the day I die! (this was given to me by Walter!) For me it will be a treasure...
Now imagine you have an ugly child....
It takes time and determination to learn a lot about bonsai. For me learning is fun...for some people a chore.
But theoretically speaking, even that can be turned into good tree with time, effort, and expertise, The question is do you have this factors, or are you willing to waste time on it.
Theoretically almost any tree can be turned in to a reasonable bonsai. But is it worth the effort?
I think as learning material...to prove a point (like me)...to just have fun and enjoy it (one mans poison is....)...and any other consideration that makes it worth your while...it is fine.
Who am I to judge?
One more thing:
For many of us our trees are our babies...to us they are beautiful. They might not look good to other people but for specific reasons they look fantastic to us. It can even be just sentimental reason. If you just give me a stick from your garden ...something you dont consider anything...I would be a happy girl and treasure it to the day I die! (this was given to me by Walter!) For me it will be a treasure...
Now imagine you have an ugly child.
...
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