When is a Pro a Pro?

[Arcto]

I normally don’t create or participate in opinion threads much. But I’ve been chewing on this a bit and thought I would throw it out to the entire community for discussion and debate. In the US, the gold standard seems to be doing an apprenticeship in Japan before becoming professional upon returning stateside. More recently, some people take lessons or apprentice with a US professional before turning pro. I know of some pros I wouldn’t want working on my trees. But I have seen the approach and work of some non professionals that I wouldn’t have the same concerns about.
Should there be a professional designation and or standard for the title? Should the community simply rely on the original work and reputation of the individuals? I understand there is a system in Japan that gives people professional status. Would the different culture here in North America allow it to work here?
As the OP, I respectfully request that while debate and disagreement is fine, please don’t take the opportunity to personally attack your favorite professional target(s). Those folks are trying to earn a living in a career where that isn’t always easy to do. Also they may not be on the forum to defend themselves. Otherwise argue away and have fun with it.

 

[milehigh_7]

A pro is a pro when they make money. Trust me, education and pedigree don't make you a pro in any walk of life. Results do. To me, this is the absolute end of the discussion.

 

[bonsaidave]

Milehigh is on target. You can probably take your argument to any sport or profession that requires loads of practice and skill.

 

[milehigh_7]

For me, the point is, "Money talks and suckers walk." If a person commands cash, they have achieved "pro" status. If nobody will pay for their knowledge, experience, and/or products they have not arrived.

 

[Arcto]

For me, the point is, "Money talks and suckers walk." If a person commands cash, they have achieved "pro" status. If nobody will pay for their knowledge, experience, and/or products they have not arrived.

Interesting point. But revenue stream can also be influenced by marketing and promotion, accessibility, start up capital, price points etc. I could argue that a higher skilled pro may not do as well based on these and other factors

 

[milehigh_7]

Interesting point. But revenue stream can also be influenced by marketing and promotion, accessibility, start up capital, price points etc. I could argue that a higher skilled pro may not do as well based on these and other factors

To me being a "pro" does not equal knowledge or skill, rather it's the ability to leverage what one does know into a situation where it is in demand.

Let's look at the music world for a moment. Taylor Swift is far from the most musically talented person in the world. She's the queen of the music world because she is without peer when it comes to marketing her product. It's not talent, skill, education, or credentials that make her a pro. What makes her a pro is about $250 million per year that says she's better than you.

 

[choppychoppy]

Interesting point. But revenue stream can also be influenced by marketing and promotion, accessibility, start up capital, price points etc. I could argue that a higher skilled pro may not do as well based on these and other factors

As with any profession, but the amount of revenue you make doesn't define a pro. This doesn't mean the lesser or better pro isn't a pro. What is seems you want to know is who is the best and what makes them so? So your real question is - Who do you think is the best pro and why?

 

[milehigh_7]

I think the term "pro" is not the correct one for the question. Being a professional is by definition measured by earning potential. If a measure of skill is desired, that is another discussion entirely.

Back to music, my son graduated from a performing arts school where you could grab a kid at random and they would have more talent, education, and credentials than the aforementioned TSwift. None will ever achieve the professional status.

 

[Tentakelaertje]

So your real question is - Who do you think is the best pro and why?

This would make an excellent tv show in the fashion of America's Got Talent. Cool names would be "So You Think You Can Bonsai" and "Holland's Next Bonsai Pro".

 

[Adair M]

A pro is someone who makes money (or charges money) doing something.

I guess I could be considered a pro. I teach bonsai classes, and give private classes. It’s not my primary profession or source of income, but it’s enough I have to declare the proceeds on my income taxes!

But I consider myself a hobbiest.

Now, there are many hobbiests whose skills far exceed some pros.

 

[0soyoung]

A pro is someone who makes money (or charges money) doing something.

agreed = by definition!

I guess I could be considered a pro. I teach bonsai classes, and give private classes. It’s not my primary profession or source of income, but it’s enough I have to declare the proceeds on my income taxes!
But I consider myself a hobbiest.

Hobbyist or semi-pro, but we're not playing baseball.

Now, there are many hobbyists [ed.] whose skills far exceed some pros.

Are you referring to Brian Van Fleet, markyscott, or someone else? John Kirby?

 

[Adair M]

agreed = by definition!

Hobbyist or semi-pro, but we're not playing baseball.

Are you referring to Brian Van Fleet, markyscott, or someone else? John Kirby?

All of those are better than some “pros” I know. There’s a bunch of people in the BIB club that are really, really good. Some of those guys are physicians, engineers, college professors, etc. a lot smarter than I am! They bonsai to take their minds off their careers for a while. But, wow, they have some awesome trees!

One of our guys here, yenling82, collected and developed a Sierra juniper that won at the National Show this year. Every bit as good as a Randy Knight/Ryan Neil tree. He did it all himself.

 

[Arcto]

As with any profession, but the amount of revenue you make doesn't define a pro. This doesn't mean the lesser or better pro isn't a pro. What is seems you want to know is who is the best and what makes them so? So your real question is - Who do you think is the best pro and why?

I’ll try to clarify. Personally, I don’t feel there is a “best” pro. Too many variables. We sort of went down the whole revenue thing a couple of folks supported. Fair enough, we embrace free enterprise in the US. Quite a few professional designations don’t really have anything to do with income beforehand. To be a CPA, Civil Engineer, Physician, etc, you need the title to earn your dime.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I’ll try to clarify. Personally, I don’t feel there is a “best” pro. Too many variables. We sort of went down the whole revenue thing a couple of folks supported. Fair enough, we embrace free enterprise in the US. Quite a few professional designations don’t really have anything to do with income beforehand. To be a CPA, Civil Engineer, Physician, etc, you need the title to earn your dime.

Those designations would be useless if you were not planning on earning money in those career fields.

 

[August44]

I'm new to this as you know, but a "pro" in the bonsai business, to me, means nothing about money, or if you conduct classes, or how big your bonsai collection is...it's about how much you really know about the art of bonsai, and how well you can communicate that to others if they were to ask you to help them understand something in the bonsai world. Peter

 

[Adair M]

I'm new to this as you know, but a "pro" in the bonsai business, to me, means nothing about money, or if you conduct classes, or how big your bonsai collection is...it's about how much you really know about the art of bonsai, and how well you can communicate that to others if they were to ask you to help them understand something in the bonsai world. Peter

That would be “an expert”.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi,
I consider myself a pro, in Plant Nursery growing and production business because I make my living doing something I love. Is it well paid - not really (NZ 35k). I don’t promote myself, my skills outside my job, and grow trees in large boxes/cans because it is fun and totally different.
This can’t be a money debate or I would be still wallowing in self-pity as my brother and my sister are Commercial Lawyers and earn 350-500k per year.
Do a job you love, and all else falls into place ? Charles

 

[kalare]

I’ll try to clarify. Personally, I don’t feel there is a “best” pro. Too many variables. We sort of went down the whole revenue thing a couple of folks supported. Fair enough, we embrace free enterprise in the US. Quite a few professional designations don’t really have anything to do with income beforehand. To be a CPA, Civil Engineer, Physician, etc, you need the title to earn your dime.

I'm one of those guys with a PE/CE and SE license. I wouldn't call myself a professional engineer if I was not practicing, I'd just be some guy with a bunch of licenses. It takes practicing (making money selling my services) to be considered a professional engineer, in my opinion. In addition, law states that one must obtain those licenses before practicing, so it's not quite equitable to bonsai pros, where no such law exists that states you "must go to japan and complete 6 year apprenticeship" in order to charge for your services.

 

[Arcto]

I'm one of those guys with a PE/CE and SE license. I wouldn't call myself a professional engineer if I was not practicing, I'd just be some guy with a bunch of licenses. It takes practicing (making money selling my services) to be considered a professional engineer, in my opinion. In addition, law states that one must obtain those licenses before practicing, so it's not quite equitable to bonsai pros, where no such law exists that states you "must go to japan and complete 6 year apprenticeship" in order to charge for your services.

I agree. To my knowledge, there is no laws or organizations here that dictate whether someone is professional or not. Meaning anyone can declare themself a professional. Do we just let the free enterprise system in this country do the culling for us?

 

[August44]

I would say yes we do...this is AMERICA!