When is early collecting, "too early"?

[Joe Dupre']

I've been back into bonsai for 4 years and have very good success ratio collecting in early Feb. for most species. We haven't had a really bad winter this year, but the trees seem hesitant to bud out. The stock answer to collecting seems to be "right as the buds start opening". I have bald cypress, mulberry, hackberry, honey locust and parsley hawthorn in my collection and they aren't showing any signs of bud swelling. The elms are showing just a bit of swelling. Just curious on y'all experiences at collecting just before the buds start opening...............or maybe even up to 3-4 weeks before bud break.

 

[peterbone]

I normally collect in spring as buds are swelling or just opening. You can then be sure that the sap is rising and therefore not all stored in the roots. For me that's end March or early April. If you collect too early and you have to remove a lot of roots then you're removing a large proportion of the trees resources that it needs for budding out.

 

[rockm]

"Too early" is when you make the judgment that winter is over, you dig a tree only to get two weeks of freezes in March and late frosts into mid-April. Up here in N. Va. that is a real danger. I have learned NEVER to make the mistake of assuming winter is over just because we get a week or two of 60-70 degree days in late Feb. and March. I typically start collecting in mid-March, but keep a cautious eye on the forecast. I have moved ALL my trees inside in late March more than a few times as temperatures toppled into mid-low 20s in late March for days.

I have learned that asking "when is it too early" usually means IT'S TOO EARLY...

 

[Cattwooduk]

This Hawthorn didn't get the memo... there's a hundred or so all going together and this one on its own has decided now is the time to start pushing growth! Took this picture last week, interesting to see how the growth has faired next few days after the blanket of snow melts.

 

[TN_Jim]

"Too early" is when you make the judgment that winter is over, you dig a tree only to get two weeks of freezes in March and late frosts into mid-April. Up here in N. Va. that is a real danger. I have learned NEVER to make the mistake of assuming winter is over just because we get a week or two of 60-70 degree days in late Feb. and March. I typically start collecting in mid-March, but keep a cautious eye on the forecast. I have moved ALL my trees inside in late March more than a few times as temperatures toppled into mid-low 20s in late March for days.

I have learned that asking "when is it too early" usually means IT'S TOO EARLY...

Do you think that healing of a chop site is also a factor? As in, if sap is flowing very minimally, that the wound could desiccate and heal differently, and/or also unnecessarily pull otherwise allocated resources away from buds that could have already began to develop? Or do you think these factors are not that significant in the big picture?

 

[River's Edge]

Too early is when the freshly dug roots begin to deteriorate rather than recover due to the conditions.

 

[GGB]

I didn't think there was a "too early" if you keep the roots from freezing. I won't normally hesitate to collect in fall because of my unheated garage. But my experience is limited and I've never dug anything over 40(ish) years old

 

[rockm]

I didn't think there was a "too early" if you keep the roots from freezing. I won't normally hesitate to collect in fall because of my unheated garage. But my experience is limited and I've never dug anything over 40(ish) years old

The longer a tree sits in soil with cut roots that don't heal, the more chances there are of rot and disease. Especially true with older collected material with large root and correspondingly large root pruning cuts.

 

[leatherback]

The longer a tree sits in soil with cut roots that don't heal, the more chances there are of rot and disease. Especially true with older collected material with large root and correspondingly large root pruning cuts.

Good point. Never really thought about that.

 

[River's Edge]

I didn't think there was a "too early" if you keep the roots from freezing. I won't normally hesitate to collect in fall because of my unheated garage. But my experience is limited and I've never dug anything over 40(ish) years old

Collecting in the "fall" is appropriate if the roots have time to recover before freezing. I typically try to leave at least 3-4 weeks before a possible freeze. The key to successful collecting is maximizing the opportunity for recovery. For this reason i save the most difficult situations for early spring. This gives the longest opportunity for root recovery. That being said the aftercare is critical regardless of which time is chosen. I rarely collect deciduous and most of my experience is with conifers, Pine, Hemlock, Juniper, Fir and Spruce. The advice for deciduous may be very different and each locale as well. Some basics are likely the same. Keep moist, not wet. Retain humidity where possible, avoid extremes such as too much heat or wind. Wait for active signs of recovery before fertilizing.

 

[coachspinks]

Zach is from your area and has been collecting for about a month now. He has a lot of success with it too.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Well, the thing is I'm going on a trip Feb. 11-15 and am undecided whether to collect before or after. We don't generally get freezing weather after Feb. 1, but it has happened. I'll just wait until after my trip.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

I collected some last Feb since it was so warm then and had spotty success—about 50%. So this year I am waiting until late March which is when buds start swell around here. No need to rush things and then have to move them into the garage when freezing weather is predicted plus it means less time sitting in the pot waiting for Spring to really arrive.

 

[GGB]

Somehow I knew I would be better off not responding to this. And for some reason I did anyway haha. Obviously spring is king, and anything worth collecting is worth babying. It's just the super young stuff I dig in the "wrong" season.

 

[SU2]

"Too early" is when you make the judgment that winter is over, you dig a tree only to get two weeks of freezes in March and late frosts into mid-April. Up here in N. Va. that is a real danger. I have learned NEVER to make the mistake of assuming winter is over just because we get a week or two of 60-70 degree days in late Feb. and March. I typically start collecting in mid-March, but keep a cautious eye on the forecast. I have moved ALL my trees inside in late March more than a few times as temperatures toppled into mid-low 20s in late March for days.

I have learned that asking "when is it too early" usually means IT'S TOO EARLY...

Opened this to learn / read and to thank @Joe Dupre' for asking as it's been on my mind, at this time of the year I'm keenly aware of where in the year I am on temp/daylight/everything and eager to collect (have already gone actually) but you're certainly not wrong here, I'd bet anything that, say, if you were collecting dormant trees and plotting success-% against day of the year, that it'd go up with a peak right before bud-break (a day? a week? no idea....my 'true optimal' is going to be earlier than yours, mostly because of my temperature but partly the humidity which seems to help everything except bark-retention lol) at which point your success% starts going down again. I collected BC's last year that I lost, though at the same time my 1st & 2nd collections (of 5, so I batted under 50%, ouch..) were collected Feb 2nd and the 8th, and both showed bud-swell (still under the trunk, but distinct enough that it's obvious) at like 1wk and 1.5wks, with visible budding (ie some green) in under 2 wks on my first-collected (feb 2nd) of the year....it's just a bigger gamble the earlier you do it, no matter what the transplant & the chop seem to force back-budding to begin so it's really a question of whether growth is sustainable isn't it? My established Crapes are dormant/leafless in a low-wind area, yet I have 2 fully-leafed, and still popping buds a couple times a week, specimen that were 'now or never' collections and they're just doing their thing and I can only imagine I'll get a great year out of them but this year I'm ready for any cold-threats, 'cold frame'-ish setup and patio and a ~10' tall, yard-wide hedge I grew this past year to act as a wind-buffer for my garden [then a freak snow-storm comes on Mar. 13th and kills 1/4th of my trees and I'm wishing there wasn't a timer on editing posts LOL ]

Going early can get you growing early, it can also kill trees so the later, the better is definitely the best default/yardstick.

 

[FedericoMelis]

Collecting in the "fall" is appropriate if the roots have time to recover before freezing. I typically try to leave at least 3-4 weeks before a possible freeze. The key to successful collecting is maximizing the opportunity for recovery. For this reason i save the most difficult situations for early spring. This gives the longest opportunity for root recovery. That being said the aftercare is critical regardless of which time is chosen. I rarely collect deciduous and most of my experience is with conifers, Pine, Hemlock, Juniper, Fir and Spruce. The advice for deciduous may be very different and each locale as well. Some basics are likely the same. Keep moist, not wet. Retain humidity where possible, avoid extremes such as too much heat or wind. Wait for active signs of recovery before fertilizing.

Could you elaborate a bit more about conifers collection aftercare?
It would be great, I can share deciduous tips in exchange if appreciated : )

 

[River's Edge]

Could you elaborate a bit more about conifers collection aftercare?
It would be great, I can share deciduous tips in exchange if appreciated : )

The aftercare is somewhat tailored to the species involved. For pines I prefer to keep them a bit drier with sun and air movement . I also use preventative fungal and insect treatments systemically as a matter of course. Collected tree's are usually weaker and often carry additional hitchhikers.
For Hemlock, Fir, Spruce, Cedar i keep the substrate damper and tend to mist or shower the foliage frequently! I follow the same process with fungal and insectide preventative treatment. I do locate them in shadier locations, partial sun/shade! Still like to have good air movement in the location.
All collected trees are initially kept separate from the main collection or nursery production to limit possible transference of disease or pest.
The first winter after collection all the new collected specimens are kept in an unheated greenhouse with fan for air movement. I do not worry about meeting full dormancy requirements that year! By doing this i avoid too much moisture in the medium. As i live in a wet forest area with lots of winter rains and very little snow. I feel this is very important for newly collected, stressed root balls!
Please note: my procedures are adapted to the soil mix i use ( pure pumice for the first two to three years) and the particular climate in my location. It may not make sense if your temperature varies a lot in the winter for example! My micro climate is fairly stable with minimal temperature swings during the fall, winter, and early spring. My winter protection for new roots under the greenhouse is for a short period of time. Mid November until Mid March would be the most extended time period. Some years this may be half that time.

 

[FedericoMelis]

The aftercare is somewhat tailored to the species involved. For pines I prefer to keep them a bit drier with sun and air movement . I also use preventative fungal and insect treatments systemically as a matter of course. Collected tree's are usually weaker and often carry additional hitchhikers.
For Hemlock, Fir, Spruce, Cedar i keep the substrate damper and tend to mist or shower the foliage frequently! I follow the same process with fungal and insectide preventative treatment. I do locate them in shadier locations, partial sun/shade! Still like to have good air movement in the location.
All collected trees are initially kept separate from the main collection or nursery production to limit possible transference of disease or pest.
The first winter after collection all the new collected specimens are kept in an unheated greenhouse with fan for air movement. I do not worry about meeting full dormancy requirements that year! By doing this i avoid too much moisture in the medium. As i live in a wet forest area with lots of winter rains and very little snow. I feel this is very important for newly collected, stressed root balls!
Please note: my procedures are adapted to the soil mix i use ( pure pumice for the first two to three years) and the particular climate in my location. It may not make sense if your temperature varies a lot in the winter for example! My micro climate is fairly stable with minimal temperature swings during the fall, winter, and early spring. My winter protection for new roots under the greenhouse is for a short period of time. Mid November until Mid March would be the most extended time period. Some years this may be half that time.

Thanks a lot.
I must keep in mind the air movement thing, my greenhouse has very little air movement as now and I should modify it.
It works for what I collect, but it wont probably work for pines and junipers and yews that I want to collect in the future.

Fungal and insect treatments seems like a good idea too, I've heard a very famous collector spraying those straight away after collection then closing the bag to bring it home, to kill everything before even entering the garden.

I use full pumice too, my winters are very mild, could probably get away even with no winter protection.
Summers are very hot. Not much humidity, just a bit on autumn through winter.
I use a very humid greenhouse for deciduous that works wonder, should probably build another one just for conifers with lot of ventilation and lower humidity?

 

[BrianBay9]

I use full pumice too, my winters are very mild, could probably get away even with no winter protection.
Summers are very hot. Not much humidity, just a bit on autumn through winter.
I use a very humid greenhouse for deciduous that works wonder, should probably build another one just for conifers with lot of ventilation and lower humidity?

Your climate must be very similar to much of California

 

[FedericoMelis]

Your climate must be very similar to much of California

Yes indeed, from Santa Barbara and up north California is classified as Mediterranean climate