When is it too late to collect/repot?

[atlarsenal]

When is it too late to collect deciduous? And when is it too late to repot and do root work? After buds have opened or do I still have time?

 

[Dav4]

It really depends on the vigor of the tree, how far the shoots have extended, and how hard you're going to go on the roots. For example, I just removed 90% of the roots from a smaller zelkova broom I air-layered 2 years ago. The roots were cut back to within an inch of the trunk, no feeder roots remaining and several 3-4" shoots extending. It's doing fine almost a week later. If those shoots were 6" long, or there were more of them, it may not have worked out so well. I've seen Walter P re-pot old maples with 6" long extensions, but he's not bare rooting them. Bottom line, it's risky to bare root trees with new foliage on them, but it can be done. Your mileage may vary.

Post some pictures of the trees and what you want to do and that may help with any advice.

 

[sorce]

I had to ask Walter in person and he does wait till leaves are open, much later than others, but he also seems to work inside very small and particular windows, and yes, cutting very little if any roots.

That said....while I can't remember Exactly exactly.....
I know right now I have NO Deciduos trees in pots that I collected "when you are supposed to" or earlier. They sprang and grew, but never made year 2, or of they did, a spring repotting killed them later.

All the collected Deciduos trees I have in pots right now were collected in summer from the ground, or via air layer...and somehow survived years of spring repotting.
Any that have died, have not died because of summer collection.

Hell....short the couple trees I collected last year and put in the ground....

The ONLY Deciduos tree I have collected that is alive right now is my Ulmus Pole to Dos which is time capsuled and looking like absolute shit due to spring repotting..."as the buds swell" for 5-6 years.

And get this....I collected it in full leaf when it was HOT as shit...cuz I was fishing in the shade under a bridge when I found it. It too was in the shade.

I took it home and the only place I had to put it was in what I later went on to describe as my "pizza oven" west facing 3rd floor hot as shit back stairway....

So not only was it collected "wrong" but the aftercare was "worse".

The beat way to increase your odds is rain and wane.

But Backwards World theory is real.
Just apply it!

Sorce

 

[atlarsenal]

Thanks Dav4, that’s what I was thinking. My problem is being careful enough not to knock the buds off. I potted this little beauty up a couple of weeks ago and knocked a bud off in the perfect spot, on the right, outside bend. Still pretty bummed about it.


And thanks Sorce but I was thinking more along the line of when it was too late to collect period. I wouldn’t be repotting those for a couple of years at least.

 

[Dav4]

Thanks Dav4, that’s what I was thinking. My problem is being careful enough not to knock the buds off. I potted this little beauty up a couple of weeks ago and knocked a bud off in the perfect spot, on the right, outside bend. Still pretty bummed about it.
View attachment 182981

And thanks Sorce but I was thinking more along the line of when it was too late to collect period. I wouldn’t be repotting those for a couple of years at least.

If you keep that one happy and growing well, I bet you get another bud there... and you can always thread or approach graft down the road.

 

[atlarsenal]

Hoping for another bud! Never thought about grafting on something that small! Have you grafted on a mame?

 

[Dav4]

Hoping for another bud! Never thought about grafting on something that small! Have you grafted on a mame?

I don’t do mame ?.... but I’m sure it can be done.

 

[sorce]

too late to collect period

That IS period!

The potting info is just the BS on top of the BS.

The way I see it....

The only difference between down there and up here is the window of opportunity.

If I can pot or collect a tree in 90 degrees in full leaf and have it survive. You can too.

I would say, because of your larger growing window, you have an even better chance of success simply because the trees are a % healthier, with a % more stored energy down there.

Of course if you follow other shitty (at times) advice like cutting all the roots off
You will not succeed.

But removing a tree from the ground in summer is by no means a death sentence.

It may be hard to understand all the information above.....
But what it boils down to is spring collection is less successful than summer....

I don't consider collecting or repotting to be different.
But I also don't prescribe to cutting all the roots off of anything ever!
My only success there has been with collected stuff going right back into the ground...in spring. And was only root chopped due to necessity.

While cutting all the roots off of a tree CAN be done...
Much is left to chance. Health and design.

I believe there is less chance amd more health if you leave the roots, and encourage next forks and new roots in appropriate places with other methods....
Grafts, notch/hormone/sphag, simple keeping the surface appropriately covered...

With what we know about roots driving new growth and new growth driving roots...
There is not a situation where completely cutting off all the roots is necessary, or better for the tree. In regards to health or design. Which always must be considered hand in hand.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

I would go on to argue that the only reason you guys are successful in spring repotting is Because of the health % being just a bit greater.

Which is to say if you repot and collect in summer, your development may get much faster.

Sorce

 

[M. Frary]

There is not a situation where completely cutting off all the roots is necessary

I'll disagree.
No roots.
9 or 10 inches across.
Collected in spring too.
No moon taken into consideration.
Sunny out too.
Still growing like a beast.

 

[Dav4]

I would go on to argue that the only reason you guys are successful in spring repotting is Because of the health % being just a bit greater.

Which is to say if you repot and collect in summer, your development may get much faster.

Sorce

I successfully spring repotted everything I had for over a decade in zone 6 MA... maples, collected junipers, jbp, etc. most people up north do so, too....

 

[sorce]

I'll disagree

I do too!

But I also don't prescribe to cutting all the roots off of anything ever!
My only success there has been with collected stuff going right back into the ground...in spring. And was only root chopped due to necessity.

Lol!

Unless otherwise deternined by the situation!

But what made it absolutely necessary?

Sorce

 

[sorce]

I successfully spring repotted everything I had for over a decade in zone 6 MA... maples, collected junipers, jbp, etc. most people up north do so, too....

I wonder if anyone has seen that Zone Map overlay of the world on the US....? From Facebook....

It needs to be shared here....

That map has my little great lakes Eff zone, which I believe includes Vance....

In a small patch said to be similar to the ukraine or some shit.

Very specific circle around the Lakes that almost mirrors the one I had built in my head.

That...the fact that Sandy successfully repots Mugo in spring.....
And many other signs....

It is why I believe what you say....
But can not say it is pertinent to me in any form whatsoever.

I think this is worsened by the fact that no one in my area ever denotes the fact that they may house their trees in conditions that mimic MA more than here...or even GA more than here....

I think spring and fall soppy wetness is the reason we have this problem.

There is a school that solves this problem by adjusting nature.

And my school which adjust the Bonsai technique to Nature.

That is the very confusion that leads the confusion.

People not knowing what school they are from...and taking advice from people that are from a different school.

These schools can not be intermingled.
It is the intermingling which creates the "it depends'"

Sorce

 

[Dav4]

All I know is that, where I lived up there, our first frost usually came by the second week in October, we had hard freezes through April, and could have frosts into May. Down here, the winters are almost as cold but shorter by about a month on either side.

 

[M. Frary]

But what made it absolutely necessary?

It had two giant roots coming out the bottom. They kind of looked like boobies when I cut them off! They were as big around as my wrist and 8"long. I tried doing root cuttings with them upside down for taper but they didnt take.
But I left 4 or 5, 3inch long feeders around the base. Being an elm was all it needed. It now has roots coming out all around the bottom cut. Like a layer.

 

[sorce]

All I know is that, where I lived up there, our first frost usually came by the second week in October, we had hard freezes through April, and could have frosts into May. Down here, the winters are almost as cold but shorter by about a month on either side.

Odd that our growing season here is a little longer....usually November frosts...
With growth beginning again as soon as March.

Truth is our possible range is from late September to early December. And early march, (mid Feb extreme) all the way to beginning of June.


That difference,range, is THE VERY THING THAT CAUSES THIS EFF ZONE!

I've had this theory since the beginning and this enlightenment is HUGE!

That difference in time is the time on both sides of the season that our trees lose vigor.

I was noting last year how long that one bud stayed "opening" Months! No movement!

Has anyone else ever witnessed such a long "safe repotting" period?

That is why Nothing regular works here for me. ..

But is also why anything I can do....
Eveyone should be able to do.

But not the other way around.

Aaaahhhh!

Buddha!

Zen!

Ha!

I just read a passage on Zen to the She S, and I realized how I didn't realize how I reached this state in my life so long ago!

I am going to write a few books!

Sorce