When to defoliate or do partial defoliate on JM

justBonsai

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I've been busy and missed the timing to cut back the central shoot on my maples. The resulting growth is very strong and internodes too long for use. Because the tree is very healthy I plan on doing one defoliation this season to produce from finer branching where I need it. What would be the ideal timing for this?

I was thinking early summer--so after leaves have hardened off and grown for 1-2 months. This way there would still be time for a second flush of growth and use of the new leaves to build food.

When is the right time to do this?

Julian
 

Soldano666

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I usually cut back and do chops anytime from leaf hardening off to mid July. But I definitely am not the guy to answer defoliation questions. Hopefully one of the bosses will chime in, because I'll be following this thread for answers too
 

0soyoung

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Acer palmatums put out a burst of growth and then pause (in terms of extension). In my climate, these pauses occur in May and in August. I cut back during these pauses. I prune for style right after leaf drop and/or before bud break.

However, the first internode of the season is usually the shortest. I think the clip&grow wisdom is that this is the only ne internode that you will keep; i.e., your tree progresses one internode per season. With wiring one can often make use of more, I think.

Lastly, I don't defoliate. I always keep at least one leaf on each stem. I often remove one of each pair of leaves for the purpose of getting light to the interior nodes (reduce the density of the canopy).
 

Adair M

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Japanese Maples are not all the same. The "ordinary" green JM can be defoliated. The "fancy" varieties usually cannot. So, "it depends"! Lol!!!

Assuming you have an ordinary JM, what I'd do is wire your new growth while it's young and flexible with aluminum. After a month to 6 weeks, you can remove the wire because it's probably lignified. Then cut back to two leaves. You should get a second flush of growth. And maybe some backbudding. You can pinch the second flush.
 

justBonsai

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Acer palmatums put out a burst of growth and then pause (in terms of extension). In my climate, these pauses occur in May and in August. I cut back during these pauses. I prune for style right after leaf drop and/or before bud break.

However, the first internode of the season is usually the shortest. I think the clip&grow wisdom is that this is the only ne internode that you will keep; i.e., your tree progresses one internode per season. With wiring one can often make use of more, I think.
Problem is some of the first internodes are longer than I'd like. I think the issue was that during the winter I had selectively pruned off the coarse growth with only some root pruning. Since there were less buds to be supplied by the root mass those remaining buds shoved out stronger. I was thinking that I could do some cut backs, but mainly a defoliation to push tertiary growth off the nodes where the extended shoot is too long. The tertiary growth would then become the continuation of the branch with hopefully shorter internodes that I'd cut back too at the end of the season.
 

justBonsai

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Japanese Maples are not all the same. The "ordinary" green JM can be defoliated. The "fancy" varieties usually cannot. So, "it depends"! Lol!!!

Assuming you have an ordinary JM, what I'd do is wire your new growth while it's young and flexible with aluminum. After a month to 6 weeks, you can remove the wire because it's probably lignified. Then cut back to two leaves. You should get a second flush of growth. And maybe some backbudding. You can pinch the second flush.
Its an ordinary green JM, so a very strong grower. I guess for now I can work with the useable growth and put some movement in them. I was thinking a defoliation might be better than a cut back for what I want. In doing a cut back and reducing the total number of buds the resulting growth will still be very strong. As you mentioned I can pinch the second flush, but depending on schedule I may not be present to do that. It would be easier to do a defoliation so that new growth would be distributed over the entire tree and thus weaker then I can follow with a cut back of longer shoots on my free time.
 

Adair M

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Well, you can do your plan, but typically, leaving long branches on means they won't have any taper.

The wire and cut back method will build taper.

It's more work, but it builds better bonsai.
 

justBonsai

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Well, you can do your plan, but typically, leaving long branches on means they won't have any taper.

The wire and cut back method will build taper.

It's more work, but it builds better bonsai.
I suppose so. For now I just work with what I can do. Here is the tree in question:
20170107_104722.jpg
IMG_2559.jpg

As you see some of the growth is exceedingly strong. Hopefully I can use this growing season to set up more primary branching, and the next to improve it.
 

Adair M

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Defoliation is a refinement/ramification technique. Your tree (forest/clump) is not ready to enter that stage yet.

You still need to get your trunks positioned, The heights settled in, get the trunks more varied in caliper, get some movement on that really straight one, etc.

Then, begin work on the branches.
 

Giga

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It's off to a nice start but you need to make some hard choices. All the trunks are almost the same height with little taper. What I would do it next year when you repot is plant it on a board and arrange the roots out radially, make the cut backs showed(or even lower), use those branches at the cuts for the new apexs and plant in a wide Anderson flat. Regrow each apex to a different height with the main middle tree being your dominate focus point. I know if kinda feels like a step back but it's actually a step forward to making a more dramatic amazing clump. For this year I would just follow @Adair M advice and ponder about the tree. Anywho thats what I would do :) I really like whatever that side right tree is
20170107_104722.jpg
 

sorce

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Amen...

I would be in a growing stage with these.

If anything, partially defoliating the small one to keep it small and get a feel for what it'll do.

Let the biggest one grow.

And balance the middles.

Sorce
 

justBonsai

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It's off to a nice start but you need to make some hard choices. All the trunks are almost the same height with little taper. What I would do it next year when you repot is plant it on a board and arrange the roots out radially, make the cut backs showed(or even lower), use those branches at the cuts for the new apexs and plant in a wide Anderson flat. Regrow each apex to a different height with the main middle tree being your dominate focus point. I know if kinda feels like a step back but it's actually a step forward to making a more dramatic amazing clump. For this year I would just follow @Adair M advice and ponder about the tree. Anywho thats what I would do :) I really like whatever that side right tree is
View attachment 134531
Yeah you're probably right. I understand the inherent problems in the structure with longer internodes and straight segments. I will do some, but not all the chops you recommended. The main trunk will benefit the most from the chops while the side trunks will be chopped in the upper halves to redo the apex. The back trunk was developed from a very low branch and will be allowed to thicken before cutting back. I will take time to study the image, then decide on my cut backs and design path.

While I am striving for a better tree, I also take into consideration my enjoyment I get out of it. Would I rather do significant cut backs on all trunk, invest many more years, but ultimately producing a better tree? Or would I rather make a decent tree, with a few structural problems, but can be produced with less work with still a good image? By no means am I implying that the current suggestions are bad, and that I am not investing time to improve some of the structure. But I've seen trees posted here where the OP was pressured into hacking into pieces just because of a few flaws when the current tree was still capable of being worked into a decent bonsai. After a certain point, I'd be better off investing money in better material. Its like would you spend 20 years and produce a tree that is 100% ("flawless") or spend say 10-12 and get something that is 70-80% in terms of quality. That's just an arbitrary example so please don't take it too seriously.

The tree on the right by the way is a root over rock trident maple. It was one of the very first trees in my collection. It spent the last year in the ground and I recently dug it up and did some cut backs. This season I will be developing primary and some secondary branching.

For now here is my tentative plan. I will let the main trunk grow largely unrestricted so that it can thicken far more than the other sub trunks. Perhaps not as dramatic if I were to cut lower, but good enough to make me happy.
JM plan.png
 

sorce

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Bleu.......

You are plenty young enough to make it perfect.

OP was pressured into hacking into pieces

Please understand, only our current selves feel pressured.

The person we become, with the better tree, will understand this.

These old guys know that.

And I bet if you dig up that post and get an update, that person may even already understand this and be perfectly content.

Truthfully, and I haven't missed anything for years!
I've seen more trees ruined because people didn't ask for advice before cutting trees.

Most important....

There is a lot of knowledge here, of what the future you is going to feel.

I think of Leo's 40 year old Pom that he knows could be killer if he made the right moves early....

None of these things change...

It will be the same for us if we don't listen!

Sorce
 

Underdog

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I'm old enough to listen to everybody but still new enough to have to do it my way. Often I say they told me so... but sometimes my way works out too. It's all good fun and learning.
I do appreciate the guys who have spent time sharing their knowledge. I apologize if I don't always follow all of it.
 

Giga

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Yeah you're probably right. I understand the inherent problems in the structure with longer internodes and straight segments. I will do some, but not all the chops you recommended. The main trunk will benefit the most from the chops while the side trunks will be chopped in the upper halves to redo the apex. The back trunk was developed from a very low branch and will be allowed to thicken before cutting back. I will take time to study the image, then decide on my cut backs and design path.

While I am striving for a better tree, I also take into consideration my enjoyment I get out of it. Would I rather do significant cut backs on all trunk, invest many more years, but ultimately producing a better tree? Or would I rather make a decent tree, with a few structural problems, but can be produced with less work with still a good image? By no means am I implying that the current suggestions are bad, and that I am not investing time to improve some of the structure. But I've seen trees posted here where the OP was pressured into hacking into pieces just because of a few flaws when the current tree was still capable of being worked into a decent bonsai. After a certain point, I'd be better off investing money in better material. Its like would you spend 20 years and produce a tree that is 100% ("flawless") or spend say 10-12 and get something that is 70-80% in terms of quality. That's just an arbitrary example so please don't take it too seriously.

The tree on the right by the way is a root over rock trident maple. It was one of the very first trees in my collection. It spent the last year in the ground and I recently dug it up and did some cut backs. This season I will be developing primary and some secondary branching.

For now here is my tentative plan. I will let the main trunk grow largely unrestricted so that it can thicken far more than the other sub trunks. Perhaps not as dramatic if I were to cut lower, but good enough to make me happy.
View attachment 134566

I understand what your saying, The only thing, is that lower chop will create much better taper and transition. It's something that you learn with time and experience. Low chops are far superior then letting a branch grow - then cutting back out for thickness/taper. Also shallow and very wide is better for growth then a bonsai pot. Good luck!
 
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