When to repot Chinese Elm, with a twist

[badatusernames]

This place feels like it's chilled out a bit - that, or I did. After being shut up inside for so long and finally getting out to chat to some people, it feels like the world is a better place in general. Deleting Twitter was like taking really, really good medicine, too, for the record.

Anyways, I was curious about this one...

I have a nice Chinese elm I bought from a warmer climate. It arrived during zero degree weather. While it MAY have started entering dormancy (it was ~60-65 where I bought it), thrusting it from there into zero degree weather seemed like a recipe for tree murder. So I kept it inside.

Now it's leafing out, and I'm sitting here wondering if I've tricked it into thinking it's Spring, and should be repotting it now vs. later in Spring.

Curious what the group thinks on this one. It FEELS like it makes sense to repot it, as it's waking up, but I know I also have a really bad habit lately of trying to justify out-of-season work (sound familiar, @Brian Van Fleet ?) and wanted to get honest and impartial opinions.

It's currently under T8 lights and on a heat pad.

 

[badatusernames]

And here’s a picture, as I know thats what most will be looking for . The person I bought it from may even be on here. If they are, I’ll also mention that I was advised by a quality bonsai nursery to keep it inside given the circumstances. I gave it a minor shaping prune with attention to the top and added a wire to address a very straight branch in the apex - I lost some important branches on a Hokkaido elm last year due to not controlling the energy correctly, so I’m looking to avoid that again (I believe it’s far, far less liable to happen on Chinese elm tho)

 

[leatherback]

I would repot whenever it suits me. In general, advice is to report around bud-break, which is what you have just had. So yeah, I would certainly wait no longer if I wanted to repot

 

[Shibui]

General advice is to repot around bud break. For most trees a few weeks either side of buds opening seems fine so your Chinese elm is still OK to repot.
Chinese elm sometimes do not go fully dormant so growers in warmer areas tried repotting with leaves on and found that's still OK. They also discovered they can repot Chinese elm any time of year.
I still try to repot Chinese elm either side of leaves opening but would still be comfortable repotting when the tree is in full leaf if necessary.

The new shoots might not just be a response to being indoors. My Chinese elms start to shoot from mid winter even when we still have below freezing nights. They don't seem to mind being outside in frost even when they have started to grow.

You mention problems with Hokkaido elm last year due to not controlling energy correctly? There are many reasons for trees losing branches. Hokkaido elm is known for doing that and usually for no real reason so don't jump to conclusions from a single experience.

This tree still has a lot of branches growing from one place. That's often a recipe for local thickening so I'd be working out which ones I could remove soon.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I lost some important branches on a Hokkaido elm last year due to not controlling the energy correctly

LOL don't think it is you Hokkaido is a notoriously weak and brittle cultivar. Look at it sideways and it will drop branches for no apparent reason. It is not unknown for it to suffer from apex die-back. It is a cool cultivar, but very finicky to put it lightly. Many people prefer Seiju as another dwarf that while not quite as small is much stronger.

I would hold off on repotting until I was getting ready to put it outside, but that's me. You want the tree to be able to recover quickly from the procedure, and that isn't going to happen inside with short winter photoperiod.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I would wait too. Instead of blasting it with light, slow it down so it can stay outside when repotted, with good natural light and warming soil.
If you do repot now, I’d keep all roots, and give it as much light and warmth as you can. Just know when it goes outside, it’s likely to experience a little shock.

 

[badatusernames]

LOL don't think it is you Hokkaido is a notoriously weak and brittle cultivar. Look at it sideways and it will drop branches for no apparent reason. It is not unknown for it to suffer from apex die-back. It is a cool cultivar, but very finicky to put it lightly. Many people prefer Seiju as another dwarf that while not quite as small is much stronger.

I would hold off on repotting until I was getting ready to put it outside, but that's me. You want the tree to be able to recover quickly from the procedure, and that isn't going to happen inside with short winter photoperiod.

Yeah, the Hokkaido is gone - that was an impulse purchase and I was kinda like "I'll figure it out". Then I did, and, oops. I'm still debating if I want to jump back in with a seiju. At least I now have a better idea what people mean when they use the words "difficult species".

I actually have them on 18/6 light schedule with the T8s... I went way overboard this year I think, it's just normal heat pads and light strips and a cheap timer on top of my bookshelf and over on a credenza, but this is exactly the kind of thing I don't know - does the tree have other ways to "know" it isn't spring. Otherwise... I'm pretty sure this tree thinks it's spring.

 

[badatusernames]

Alright we’ll, because of these details:

-budding out
-18/6 lights
-heat pad
-Bjorn saying you can do almost anything with the right aftercare and a strong tree (or something like that I think, don’t quote me or him haha)
-I listen when @Shibui speaks

I repotted it. Ippinaki pot.



And for color here’s the aftercare area it’s in. Next year I’m going to neaten this nook up, this is kind of a trial run vs. just a window for my indoor trees

 

[badatusernames]

oh jeeeeze I didn’t see @Brian Van Fleet commeht cuz of the change in avatar since I was last here

that may have tipped the scales the other way with him and BN siding with not repotting D:

YOLO, I guess

 

[badatusernames]

General advice is to repot around bud break. For most trees a few weeks either side of buds opening seems fine so your Chinese elm is still OK to repot.
Chinese elm sometimes do not go fully dormant so growers in warmer areas tried repotting with leaves on and found that's still OK. They also discovered they can repot Chinese elm any time of year.
I still try to repot Chinese elm either side of leaves opening but would still be comfortable repotting when the tree is in full leaf if necessary.

The new shoots might not just be a response to being indoors. My Chinese elms start to shoot from mid winter even when we still have below freezing nights. They don't seem to mind being outside in frost even when they have started to grow.

You mention problems with Hokkaido elm last year due to not controlling energy correctly? There are many reasons for trees losing branches. Hokkaido elm is known for doing that and usually for no real reason so don't jump to conclusions from a single experience.

This tree still has a lot of branches growing from one place. That's often a recipe for local thickening so I'd be working out which ones I could remove soon.

coming back to respond - yes, I may have some choices to make, I’m just pondering it and leaving it alone now though. I think the question I have with this one is…. Wouldn’t it essentially eventually do something like this at the top? Am I reverse engineering this wrong in my head? Or perhaps is this not quite what to strive for via traditional rules / aesthetics? I admit that when it comes to brooms I’ve always wondered why there isn’t more lumpiness, as some do seem to have more branches close to one another than I’d think correct in other forms…

Shohin Elm

Here is my old small Elm. I have it for more than 25 years..

www.bonsainut.com

Re: Hokkaido, I didn’t know much about them beyond “they’re difficult” and was later told it was because I didn’t control the energy - I could be repeating incorrect info. I guess I knew they could drop branches, but was hoping to learn techniques to avoid it. Sounds like it’s just their personality.

 

[Shibui]

One thing in your favour is that its a tiny tree so thickening should be slower than a larger one. Often with tiny bonsai there's no choice - to get 3 or 4 branches on a tiny tree some must be close together.
I still see no reason to tempt fate any more than I need to so wherever possible I reduce branch density as much as possible. There seems to be a tendency to keep way too many branches in the initial stages. I've done it but now getting better at making spaces earlier in development. Remaining branches often seem to ramify and develop faster after branch thinning reduces competition.
You have done a great job so far so I'll leave it up to you to decide what and when.

 

[badatusernames]

One thing in your favour is that its a tiny tree so thickening should be slower than a larger one. Often with tiny bonsai there's no choice - to get 3 or 4 branches on a tiny tree some must be close together.
I still see no reason to tempt fate any more than I need to so wherever possible I reduce branch density as much as possible. There seems to be a tendency to keep way too many branches in the initial stages. I've done it but now getting better at making spaces earlier in development. Remaining branches often seem to ramify and develop faster after branch thinning reduces competition.
You have done a great job so far so I'll leave it up to you to decide what and when.

That's great info, thank you! I agree, I'm at the point where I want to ensure future success so I'd rather explore taking longer to do it right vs. being fast. I keep saying this year is when I want to slow way down compared to last... I feel like I have some nuts and bolts knowledge but need to focus on applying it.
The wave of being self-impressed for "getting" something followed by realizing how poorly you did it a month later is both rewarding and something that's probably good for me. That said... I do want to give every effort to do it right as I do it!

 

[LanceMac10]

If it doesn't make it, how ya'll gonna' figure out what went wrong? You've introduced so many variables into the equation. Spring is a solid two months away....and that's really just a date on the calendar.

Expect leaf-drop when moved to the bench. Elms pretty resilient.

Time and Patience are good stuff to have in the tool-box......

The nice new pot, me thinks, played a role in the end result?

 

[badatusernames]

If it doesn't make it, how ya'll gonna' figure out what went wrong? You've introduced so many variables into the equation. Spring is a solid two months away....and that's really just a date on the calendar.

Expect leaf-drop when moved to the bench. Elms pretty resilient.

Time and Patience are good stuff to have in the tool-box......

The nice new pot, me thinks, played a role in the end result?

Probably more than I’d like to admit even if the pot has been around a bit, however, the variables above influenced me most. My thought was less “I want to do this now” and more “I think I have to do this now if I want to do this this year”.

The real answer is I should have waited another year and let it have a full dormancy in the grow pot to be certain, probably. The known strength of the species played a large role as well.

we will see

 

[badatusernames]

I’m still thinking about it and have hope. I don’t really know what else is supposed to happen to tree going from dormancy to this and light.

Let me just hang on to this hope for like…. A few days to a week or so and we’ll all find out together

 

[badatusernames]

Couple days later, some of the leaves that were on it arrived have yellowed and fallen off, otherwise it’s just leafing out

I’m not saying “phew” yet, I’m just saying it’s not dead yet haha

I commit to documenting this through to the end so people may participate in my success or find great humor in my failure, whichever way it happens to go…



I don’t know why it’s uploading sideways ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[leatherback]

participate in my success or find great humor in my failure

I am not sure where your concerns are. You did well. The tree was telling you it is waking up and wants to get started with the season, so you repot. The calender does not dictate the timing. The tree does.

 

[badatusernames]

I am not sure where your concerns are. You did well. The tree was telling you it is waking up and wants to get started with the season, so you repot. The calender does not dictate the timing. The tree does.

that’s what I’m banking on! Seems to be paying off. Have to question yourself when breaking the rules, but I don’t think it was impatience that made that call and looks like it was the right one!

remain adaptable to new variables!

 

[badatusernames]

Well I guess now we know for sure

I did root work too, though didn’t go as hard as I would have if I was confident in the timing. I basically left at least two clumps of fine roots - kind of thinking of it as a backup bud in case the first clump crapped out - and next year or the following I can finish it up.

FWIW this is part of why I was beating up my tropicals, I wanted to know what it’d really take to damage a ficus. I repotted one with massive wire scarring like six times last year that was on its final root and all that happened is one branch I had defoliated - while it was super weak - died off. I’m now air layering the top off just to see what happens and if it can do it after getting the shit kicked out of it.

The only real reason I was nervous was because this is a different kind of tree. Chinese elms have the same “you have to try to kill them” vibe to me from what I’ve learned, and since the ficus worked, I was fairly confident this would too. It’s just a gamble I prefer not to take with a nicer tree.

 

[leatherback]

Hate to say it but.. Told ya so