When to root prune and hard prune.

[Munch9]

I would defer to @Shibui as I don't work with maples that much, and when I do, they certainly do not grow as fast as this may for you.

All I know, that other folks don't seem to consider, is there is not only a balance between inverse taper and not.

But deeper, the balance between allowing the health of keeping pieces, while considering how much of the allowed inverse taper you will safely be able to recontour upon removal.

That is the insight that I wanted to get to in the first place. I deeply appreciate the conversation allowed to continue to get to that point.

I would definitely remove the center trunk with a cut around the x soon. But only if you are prepared to be diligent in rubbing buds in bad positions, and risk leaving the one good one.
View attachment 409501

The purple would be your future recontour line, so a bud at the red would need removal, in favor of something in a better position, as the yellow, which will remain within a pleasant contour.

I don't know that I'd want the shade of a layer contraption over where you need those buds, probably better to make cuttings. The efforts of removal also offer an unnecessary risk to your future small new branchlets.

Sorce

Thanks a lot for your help, I will proceed the way you said, wait until all leaves are gone and then make the cut.
The main trunk could be airlayered without a problem?

 

[sorce]

wait until all leaves are gone and then make the cut

I'm not sure where this may have been implied, but I would cut the middle trunk now.

I think you can airlayer it without much interference of the low.

Except I still wouldn't.

I believe a layer will induce backbudding to about half the strength of a full lop off.

So in instances like this, where the base is far better than the layer already, I'd opt to full lop.

If more material of this tree is needed, I'd just try to root every cutting.
Or layer other sacrifice stuff later, where extreme backbudding response isn't necessary.

Sorce

 

[Munch9]

I'm not sure where this may have been implied, but I would cut the middle trunk now.

I think you can airlayer it without much interference of the low.

Except I still wouldn't.

I believe a layer will induce backbudding to about half the strength of a full lop off.

So in instances like this, where the base is far better than the layer already, I'd opt to full lop.

If more material of this tree is needed, I'd just try to root every cutting.
Or layer other sacrifice stuff later, where extreme backbudding response isn't necessary.

Sorce

I will cut as soon as I get some rooting powder to make some cuttings, enjoy the end of spring and the begining of summer.

Really glad by your help Sorce.

 

[Shibui]

I can wait till winter without worring that that thin branch won't cause an inverse taper?

I doubt that any of the branches on this tree will cause problems soon.
Inverse taper is a result of the tree thickening as it grows. Trees in small pots that are trimmed regularly don't thicken much so problems usually take years to manifest. If the tree is allowed to grow lots and thicken fast the problems show up much quicker.

Having said that the sooner you remove potential problems the less chance they will happen.

The only problem I see is that i'm insecure if this branch is even alive haha...

I would also be concerned about relying on a branch with no leaves when the rest of the tree is fully leafed. There must be something wrong with that small branch. You are fortunate that there are other possible viable branches below so you could still chop up there and cross fingers. If it fails then just cut again down to the lower branch. For a better smaller tree I would probably go with something like @sorce has shown using the lowest right branch as trunk.
Just be aware that smaller bonsai are infinitely more difficult to style and to keep alive.
Many died before I managed to master pruning, styling, watering, repotting, etc well enough to manage shohin sized trees so only recently am I coming back to try small bonsai again. I find JM particularly challenging so i hope yours co-operates but it may be better to hone skills on better behaved bonsai species - trident maple, Seiju elm, lonicera are a few that are far more forgiving here.

 

[Munch9]

I doubt that any of the branches on this tree will cause problems soon.
Inverse taper is a result of the tree thickening as it grows. Trees in small pots that are trimmed regularly don't thicken much so problems usually take years to manifest. If the tree is allowed to grow lots and thicken fast the problems show up much quicker.

Having said that the sooner you remove potential problems the less chance they will happen.


I would also be concerned about relying on a branch with no leaves when the rest of the tree is fully leafed. There must be something wrong with that small branch. You are fortunate that there are other possible viable branches below so you could still chop up there and cross fingers. If it fails then just cut again down to the lower branch. For a better smaller tree I would probably go with something like @sorce has shown using the lowest right branch as trunk.
Just be aware that smaller bonsai are infinitely more difficult to style and to keep alive.
Many died before I managed to master pruning, styling, watering, repotting, etc well enough to manage shohin sized trees so only recently am I coming back to try small bonsai again. I find JM particularly challenging so i hope yours co-operates but it may be better to hone skills on better behaved bonsai species - trident maple, Seiju elm, lonicera are a few that are far more forgiving here.

Yeah, I was meditating looking at the tree and I realized that I still feel very unsecure to cut it back to those first branches...
I'm getting back to the idea of taking out just one branch( thin one) to alleviate that inverse taper, and let it grow to become a bigger tree, get it back into a training pot next year...

 

[sorce]

I still feel very unsecure

Lol...you may have to go back a page on this thread to get the while context!
Post in thread 'Opinions on styling new cork bark maple' https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/opinions-on-styling-new-cork-bark-maple.52908/post-915934

The problem with the human condition, is it makes it so that we can't realize the most important balance, is hidden by time.

It takes approximately 3-40 years to realize more insecurity from poor design decisions.

The things working against this balance are...
1. People not believing other people when they say their trees suck.
2. People not believing other people when they say their trees are excellent....ahem.
3. People who believe people that believe only some trees have potential. (You will not sacrifice what you believe to be limited.)

You see the "belief" theme and it's coupling to people?
Belief is a choice, we must make better decisions.

Better to just become one with the trees.

........

Anyway I agree that this tree might should be much bigger.

But when it comes to nodes, especially on maples, I follow the ...
"Better to have em and not need em than need em and not have em"...rule.

By following that rule it becomes true that...

You can always make a small tree bigger.
But you only get one chance to make a small tree small.

#nodestackers

Sorce

 

[Munch9]

Lol...you may have to go back a page on this thread to get the while context!
Post in thread 'Opinions on styling new cork bark maple' https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/opinions-on-styling-new-cork-bark-maple.52908/post-915934

The problem with the human condition, is it makes it so that we can't realize the most important balance, is hidden by time.

It takes approximately 3-40 years to realize more insecurity from poor design decisions.

The things working against this balance are...
1. People not believing other people when they say their trees suck.
2. People not believing other people when they say their trees are excellent....ahem.
3. People who believe people that believe only some trees have potential. (You will not sacrifice what you believe to be limited.)

You see the "belief" theme and it's coupling to people?
Belief is a choice, we must make better decisions.

Better to just become one with the trees.

........

Anyway I agree that this tree might should be much bigger.

But when it comes to nodes, especially on maples, I follow the ...
"Better to have em and not need em than need em and not have em"...rule.

By following that rule it becomes true that...

You can always make a small tree bigger.
But you only get one chance to make a small tree small.

#nodestackers

Sorce

Maybe you are right.

Though decisions to make...
I'm thinking.

 

[Munch9]

One day at a time.
Today was a big day to my bonsai life haha, couldn't be more thankful for the courage that I created through this forum.
Made cuttings with every little branch, my first try on that, hopefully it all ends well, and if not, whatever, LET'S LEARN!

 

[Munch9]

Should I keep it away from direct sunlight for a couple of days or na?

 

[Potawatomi13]

Thanks a lot!

As far as styling I'm truly in doubt, have no idea cutting the main trunk is right or wrong.

Yes. Already too straight, boring, tall for Mame.

 

[Shibui]

Should I keep it away from direct sunlight for a couple of days or na?

Probably not necessary to protect this just because it has been chopped.
I sometimes get some sunburn on the leaves after pruning because the lower leaves have been shaded by the upper branches so are not ready for full sun but a little sunburn does no real long term damage. The tree will grow new ones to compensate. I doubt that the small canopy you had will have shaded these lower branches enough to cause that problem anyway.

 

[sorce]

LET'S LEARN!

Amen!

Take a heavy note of how this feeling of courage into the future is absolutely destroying that insecurity!

Proud.

Sorce