When too much mychorrizea is not so good for pines.

[Clicio]

Three weeks ago, when buds were starting to swell around here, I noticed that one of the JBP (a neagari in a tall pot) was not draining very well. As it had been repotted in the spring of 2019 in very draining soil, I decided to pull it off from the pot to check the issue.
To my big surprise the whole rootball was surrounded by the whitish fine web of mychorrizea, but the bottom was completely white.
I sawed off a slice of the bottom, replaced the plant into the pot, and the issue was gone.
I didn't post this experience at the time because I wasn't certain that this was really possible, mychorrizea blocking out the drainage of the pot, but reading Michael Hagedorn's excellent book "Bonsai Heresy", he mentions it as a constant issue with his pines.
Unfortunately it didn't occur to me to take a picture of the rootball, but below is an old picture of the pine in its training plastic pot. Tomorrow I will try to take a picture of in in it's new pot, if it matters.

 

[DirkvanDreven]

Nice pine!

 

[0soyoung]

Tomorrow I will try to take a picture of in in it's new pot, if it matters

Of course it matters ...





... waiting, ...

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I know all about it Clicio! And I have an example for the people who might be interested. See the picture above.

There are just a few things in the world that can actually break down mycelial structures, and most of them aren't good for your plants.
With the rapid growth rate of a well established fungus, poking holes doesn't work.

Just out of interest, would you mind sharing your soil composition?
I see a lot of mycelium developing when I use small parts of akadama. But I get better rooting in pines with more 'solid' material like lava rock and pumice.

 

[Clicio]

Nice pine!

Of course it matters ...

Thanks, guys, here is the picture.
It's spring here, so it is growing free and the design now is not so nice, but the pot shape shows how it got clogged.
@Wires_Guy_wires shows above exactly what happened to mine...

 

[Clicio]

Just out of interest, would you mind sharing your soil composition?

Yes, of course!
Peat, Perlite, Lava, Crushed bricks (we don't have the "good" hard Akadama here) and high fired clay.
This last product is not Turface as many people think, but more like LECA in sizes from 5mm to 9mm. I can get it in a mix with some crushed also (from bigger "balls"), so it's a mix of small pellets and crushed ones.
Take a look at the picture below:

 

[Clicio]

Yes, of course!
Peat, Perlite, Lava, Crushed bricks, and high fired clay.

@Wires_Guy_wires sorry, the main organic I use is missing on the mix above!
Sifted pine bark with some bamboo charcoal added.

 

[0soyoung]

It wasn't draining well.
Cut off the bottom of the myco-filled root 'ball'
Now it drains well.

But, what evidence do you have that it has made your pine healthier or more vigorous than having left it be (ref. this thread's title)?

 

[Clicio]

But, what evidence do you have that it has made your pine healthier or more vigorous than having left it be (ref. this thread's title)?

I don't have a foolproof evidence besides the picture above, taken yesterday.
It seems happy, 0soyoung.
Healthy

But... I couldn't leave it the way it was, not draining and holding water in the bottom of the pot. So I guess I will never know.

 

[0soyoung]

So, @Clicio, you know that it used to be that the water just went along the interior pot edge(s) and then pooled in the bottom, not draining from the drainage hole? IOW, your drainage screen was choked with myc?


btw, I am happy that your tree is happy. I am also interested in the horticultural issue you raised = whether there is such a thing as too much myc.

I have a number of Douglas firs in pots that are choked with it and some seemingly without. I don't recognize any difference other than the rate of drainage when I water - all appear to be about the same, otherwise.
I have pines in pots and in baskets. A few are clearly choked with myc and have been for at least a couple of years. These pines are quite healthy (I've been growing a long sacrifice on one of them and I see no apparent difference in the annual extensions of that stem, yet). The ones without any apparent myc have problems that I think are attributable to my tendency to overwater pines.
I've had myc populate some of my pots of cork oaks. Those particular ones grew far more vigorously than those that seemingly had none. After repotting, the myc has yet to reappear even though I attempted to inoculate them, by including some of the myc I found when repotting them - there is no longer any apparent difference in vigor between them.

So, it seems that some myc can be beneficial, even with chemical fertilizer, but it is far from clear to me that there is such a thing as too much myc. Maybe it is always a good thing and that we err in instinctively repotting when drainage slows (a bad sign under no-myc circumstances).

I'm just looking for evidence.

 

[Clicio]

So, it seems that some myc can be beneficial, even with chemical fertilizer, but it is far from clear to me that there is such a thing as too much myc. Maybe it is always a good thing and that we err in instinctively repotting when drainage slows (a bad sign under no-myc circumstances).

I'm just looking for evidence.

Exactly, I am curious too.
After a short time (less than one year), the soil is not draining -> take the pine out of the pot -> mychorrizae all over -> clean it/repot -> water drains again.
But I was not absolutely sure this was the only issue.
Then, two weeks later I got Hagedorn's book, and it was written there.
What made me post this thread was the confirmation by Michael Hagedorn.
So I posted it.

 

[Firstflush]

Regarding too much myc...a more current farming/food growing technique using regenerative and organic methods is called “no dig” or “no till”. The myc is considered so important that this newer technique uses compost on top of plain old field or yard soil instead of turning it in. In this manner the soil structure and myc network is not disrupted. Other then a clogged drainage hole I don’t think you can have too much myc. I believe the fungi self regulates it’s growth based on available resources.

The YouTube UK farmer, Charles Dowding, has really championed no dig. He is keeping annual harvested veggie weight totals of the tilled vs no dig beds with each being planted the same. The no dig beds are winning the weight totals.

Sorry a little off message but indicates the importance of the myc network.