Where and when to chop Hornbeam?

[One First Matter All]

Hi all,

I purchased this collected American hornbeam last weekend from a local bonsai enthusiast (and a great guy!). He said the tree has been in the box for two years (meaning, this is its third summer). I think the trunk is a bit too long, and I would like to cut it back. I saw another recent post addressing deciduous chops, and, rather than hijack that post, I figured I would just make a post of my own. I plan to consult with the collector, as well, once I get the chance (or if you're out there, feel free to weigh in).

Any advice on if and where to make the chop? I've marked in red where I think a chop might go to bring some proportion to the tree. However, as you can see, the new leader would appear behind the trunk if I performed this chop, assuming this angle remains the front (which it likely will).

Also, when should I perform this chop? And while we're at it, how? As in, what tool should I use? Does an ordinary handsaw work ok? Thanks in advance!

 

[sorce]

One First Matter All!

Chug that dragonfly and go ham!

If that branch was no higher than where the green hides the trunk, the second segment would be in good proportion with the wider base, so high is just too high.

I think that leaves you cutting it all the way back to the first branches, to use one of them as your second segment, in which case, I'd want to get one branch about half as thick as the base before chopping to it and a good first branch.

Sorce

 

[BobbyLane]

lets see it without leaves and from the other side.
again, i chop at anytime.
with a reciprocating saw once tree is firmly secured in pot.

 

[One First Matter All]

Thanks for the thoughts @sorce and @BobbyLane . I am attaching a few more photos, including some from what I consider the back of the tree. Let me know if these photos change anything.

 

[BobbyLane]

cant see very well, but looks like the branch you like is at a very awkward place, deciduous trees are judged on their winter image so ask yourself if a leader will ever look good there. what are other people doing with similar material.

 

[Shibui]

Any advice on if and where to make the chop? I've marked in red where I think a chop might go to bring some proportion to the tree. However, as you can see, the new leader would appear behind the trunk if I performed this chop, assuming this angle remains the front (which it likely will).

Why should that side remain as the front. Viewing angle is always a compromise between nebari, trunk, branching, features and faults. you cannot pick a front until you have all or most of the other elements so please leave the option of front open for now.

It is still possible to have a leader from behind a trunk chop. You could keep developing the tree until the chop has healed and disappeared before showing OR you could make a feature of the chop. Dead wood on deciduous has traditionally been a no-no but there are some great new collected deciduous trees from Europe that feature hollows in collected deciduous trees. Hollows are a natural feature of many species. That's where owls, wood peckers and other animals live in the forests.

Another option is to make the chop as shown and cross all fingers and toes that the chop will stimulate further new shoots. If you are really lucky one may grow in a more desirable spot. Obviously that will put the whole development program back a few years but you may be prepared to do that for the sake of an 'acceptable' trunk.

Also, when should I perform this chop? And while we're at it, how? As in, what tool should I use? Does an ordinary handsaw work ok? Thanks in advance!

I chop deciduous trees whenever I have the tree, the time, inspiration and tools. Summer seems to be a good time to chop as the trees heal and grow back quickly.
An ordinary handsaw will cut wood but the wider blades can make it more difficult to avoid other branches and to cut in tight spaces. If you can get the saw in and make the cut where you want it then any saw is OK. For a lot of bonsai work a smaller, narrow blade saw works better. Smaller teeth don't rip the bark so much. I've started using the woodshop bandsaw to make larger cuts on field grown trunks but you'd probably find it a bit harder to get this one to the saw and hold it while making the cut accurately. Just take your time with the cut and don't get frustrated that it is going too slow.

Consulting with the vendor would be a great start as they are likely to know how the local hornbeams respond to further cuts and have a much better idea of what the entire 3D tree looks like so far easier to see other possibilities that may be hidden in just a single view of the trunk.

 

[One First Matter All]

Why should that side remain as the front. Viewing angle is always a compromise between nebari, trunk, branching, features and faults. you cannot pick a front until you have all or most of the other elements so please leave the option of front open for now.

It is still possible to have a leader from behind a trunk chop. You could keep developing the tree until the chop has healed and disappeared before showing OR you could make a feature of the chop. Dead wood on deciduous has traditionally been a no-no but there are some great new collected deciduous trees from Europe that feature hollows in collected deciduous trees. Hollows are a natural feature of many species. That's where owls, wood peckers and other animals live in the forests.

Another option is to make the chop as shown and cross all fingers and toes that the chop will stimulate further new shoots. If you are really lucky one may grow in a more desirable spot. Obviously that will put the whole development program back a few years but you may be prepared to do that for the sake of an 'acceptable' trunk.


I chop deciduous trees whenever I have the tree, the time, inspiration and tools. Summer seems to be a good time to chop as the trees heal and grow back quickly.
An ordinary handsaw will cut wood but the wider blades can make it more difficult to avoid other branches and to cut in tight spaces. If you can get the saw in and make the cut where you want it then any saw is OK. For a lot of bonsai work a smaller, narrow blade saw works better. Smaller teeth don't rip the bark so much. I've started using the woodshop bandsaw to make larger cuts on field grown trunks but you'd probably find it a bit harder to get this one to the saw and hold it while making the cut accurately. Just take your time with the cut and don't get frustrated that it is going too slow.

Consulting with the vendor would be a great start as they are likely to know how the local hornbeams respond to further cuts and have a much better idea of what the entire 3D tree looks like so far easier to see other possibilities that may be hidden in just a single view of the trunk.

Thanks so much. I appreciate the advice, and I'm glad to hear that it's not insane to consider the identified new leader in the photo as the new leader. If I did go that route and made that branch the new leader, I had planned on making the chop where I put the red line on the photo but at a 45 degree angle, so that the "open wound" appears on the (for now) back side of tree. Still not sure if that's the right way to go, though. Thanks again.

 

[BobbyLane]

Also, not sure if you came across this thread, but theres all kinds of cuts and chops here on tall trees, short trees, similar trunks to yours trees

Carpinus material

Recent work on a powerful carpinus, this tree will be for sale shortly...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[One First Matter All]

Also, not sure if you came across this thread, but theres all kinds of cuts and chops here on tall trees, short trees, similar trunks to yours trees

Carpinus material

Recent work on a powerful carpinus, this tree will be for sale shortly...

www.bonsainut.com

Thanks!

 

[AshleyMammal]

lets see it without leaves and from the other side.
again, i chop at anytime.
with a reciprocating saw once tree is firmly secured in pot.

@BobbyLane quick question, sorry to hijack the thread. I know you’ve mentioned before, chopping at the nursery in order to fit in your car; Would you do a full-on trunk chop even at this time of year (fall/winter) or always leave some foliage/previously active buds?

 

[BobbyLane]

@BobbyLane quick question, sorry to hijack the thread. I know you’ve mentioned before, chopping at the nursery in order to fit in your car; Would you do a full-on trunk chop even at this time of year (fall/winter) or always leave some foliage/previously active buds?

I did this on October 25th.

If by a full on trunk chop you mean chopping back to nothing at all, that's not what I do. To me that would be boring at this time of year as it leaves me with nothing to look at or do. Can't even wire out a branch. All you're left with is hope, hope that it responds in the growing season. I usually only buy stuff that has established low growth to chop back to. I like to work my trees out the box or I get bored.

 

[brentwood]

Is anyone else thinking of taking an air layer before doing a chop here? There's a lot of tree there, especially if you're talking about doing a lower chop. Is that worth considering? Just a thought,
B