Where To Chop

jimlau

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If a new leader is in the middle of the front of the tree, where do you chop it? I marked the 3 possibilities.

In the other photo are the chop options are available on the other side of the tree, a trident maple.

Thanks.
 

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dbonsaiw

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Trident maples will back bud nicely. You could chop straight across a little bit above your new leader. In the second pic, if you plan to use the top right branch as the new leader, you could cut on an angle towards the left branch.
 

BobbyLane

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Trident maples will back bud nicely. You could chop straight across a little bit above your new leader. In the second pic, if you plan to use the top right branch as the new leader, you could cut on an angle towards the left branch.
Do they, why do so many people resort to grafting then...
 

jimlau

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Trident maples will back bud nicely. You could chop straight across a little bit above your new leader. In the second pic, if you plan to use the top right branch as the new leader, you could cut on an angle towards the left branch.
So from the front view, the width of the trunk is not reduced by any chop? The trunk would go from the current 2+" to the new leader which is currently 1/8"? Adding 1 of the 2 angled chops would not be advisable, even if it provides some taper?
Thanks.
 

dbonsaiw

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Do they, why do so many people resort to grafting then...
Grafting tridents? Personally, never saw that.

So from the front view, the width of the trunk is not reduced by any chop? The trunk would go from the current 2+" to the new leader which is currently 1/8"? Adding 1 of the 2 angled chops would not be advisable, even if it provides some taper?
My understanding is that the chop will be angled, the question is whether you do it now or follow up with the angle in a year or so. The taper from the "front" view will depend on the front used. Many people will hide the angled cut in the back because of the scarring. The transition from 2" to 1/8" is just a today thing - you need to grow out the new leader so that that taper is less drastic. When the 1/8" section is more like 1.5" (or a taper you like) then cut the leader back again to grow the next section and create more movement and taper.

Attached is a trident I am working on and that I cut back this spring. Buds are a poppin.
 

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BobbyLane

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Grafting tridents? Personally, never saw that.


My understanding is that the chop will be angled, the question is whether you do it now or follow up with the angle in a year or so. The taper from the "front" view will depend on the front used. Many people will hide the angled cut in the back because of the scarring. The transition from 2" to 1/8" is just a today thing - you need to grow out the new leader so that that taper is less drastic. When the 1/8" section is more like 1.5" (or a taper you like) then cut the leader back again to grow the next section and create more movement and taper.

Attached is a trident I am working on and that I cut back this spring. Buds are a poppin.
'Trident maples will back bud nicely'

They often dont, this is the reason why so many resort to grafting new branches on, not only with tridents but j maples too.
 

jimlau

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Grafting tridents? Personally, never saw that.


My understanding is that the chop will be angled, the question is whether you do it now or follow up with the angle in a year or so. The taper from the "front" view will depend on the front used. Many people will hide the angled cut in the back because of the scarring. The transition from 2" to 1/8" is just a today thing - you need to grow out the new leader so that that taper is less drastic. When the 1/8" section is more like 1.5" (or a taper you like) then cut the leader back again to grow the next section and create more movement and taper.

Attached is a trident I am working on and that I cut back this spring. Buds are a poppin.
Is that the height of the final bottom trunk section you will keep?
 

rockm

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Do they, why do so many people resort to grafting then...
To get branches and roots in EXACTLY the right places. They are so fast growing that grafting is pretty easy to do. Don't HAVE to do resort to grafts though.
 

BobbyLane

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To get branches and roots in EXACTLY the right places. They are so fast growing that grafting is pretty easy to do. Don't HAVE to do resort to grafts though.
Sure. Its rare to see a trident or maple thread here that isnt a lesson in grafting though, it leaves me sorta questioning how readily these trees back bud up n down the trunks. options usually are limited, forcing people into grafting.
 

dbonsaiw

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Sure. Its rare to see a trident or maple thread here that isnt a lesson in grafting though, it leaves me sorta questioning how readily these trees back bud up n down the trunks. options usually are limited, forcing people into grafting.
To clarify my prior response - I never had an issue getting a trident maple to back bud from a bare trunk. My experience with JMs has not been the same - they sometimes bud only really low and sometimes they just don't bud. Now, getting buds where you want them is whole other story and tridents will likely need a bunch of grafts to get that done.
 

River's Edge

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Do they, why do so many people resort to grafting then...
I can think of a couple of reasons.
1. The tree is not maintained in a condition that allows the tree to respond as well.
2. Buds are not occurring in the location a branch is desired.
3. The age of the tree makes it a better candidate for grafting in the desired location than bud back.
4. Grafting is often a faster route to rebuilding an older tree for example.

But then these factors are of consideration in any species that is known for easier " back budding".
 

BobbyLane

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I can think of a couple of reasons.
1. The tree is not maintained in a condition that allows the tree to respond as well.
2. Buds are not occurring in the location a branch is desired.
3. The age of the tree makes it a better candidate for grafting in the desired location than bud back.
4. Grafting is often a faster route to rebuilding an older tree for example.

But then these factors are of consideration in any species that is known for easier " back budding".
I think for the majority of trees posted here, which are often very young, the last two points are a bit moot, but agree with 1 and 2.
I rarely used to come across people needing to graft on branches on European forums, just seems very common here thats all.

Theres an old quote I used to come across when starting in the hobby: 'Let the tree tell you what it wants to be' or 'The tree will tell you what it wants to be'
I guess with putting branches where you want them, youre making the tree into something YOU want it to be. Its another way to look at it I guess. Fortunately ive not come across material that has needed these techniques, but seems pretty easy by the looks of it.
 
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River's Edge

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I think for the majority of trees posted here, which are often very young, the last two points are a bit moot, but agree with 1 and 2.
I rarely used to come across people needing to graft on branches on European forums, just seems very common here thats all.

Theres an old quote I used to come across when starting in the hobby: 'Let the tree tell you what it wants to be' or 'The tree will tell you what it wants to be'
I guess with putting branches where you want them, youre making the tree into something YOU want it to be. Its another way to look at it I guess. Fortunately ive not come across material that has needed these techniques, but seems pretty easy by the looks of it.
Easy to agree with your comments from an idealistic point of view. As you quoted John Naka I believe. Unfortunately I come across a lot of trees that have been cared for in a basic elementary fashion for a long time and need or could benefit from rebuilding. Simply developed with poor choices or deteriorating through poor maintenance. Very nice nebari and older trunks with movement. But they have dead primary branches and foliage that has been allowed to grow out or branches that have deteriorated through poor pruning technique or lack thereof. So it is common for these enthusiasts to seek out further techniques to improve older trees or neglected trees. And often in my experience collected trees can benefit from grafting.
I do think it becomes more common for more experienced Bonsai enthusiasts to acquire older stock to work on rather than the younger stock you refer to in a developmental sense. In many cases the older trees can be improved with grafting.
If ones primary focus is on digging up trunks and reselling, or developing from scratch then I see your point.
Lots of room in the hobby for alternate paths to the same destination. A focus on improvement and refinement can often lead to requiring more techniques rather than less.
I suppose one could just scrap those that require extra technique or effort, but that seems not quite "cricket"
 

BobbyLane

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Easy to agree with your comments from an idealistic point of view. As you quoted John Naka I believe. Unfortunately I come across a lot of trees that have been cared for in a basic elementary fashion for a long time and need or could benefit from rebuilding. Simply developed with poor choices or deteriorating through poor maintenance. Very nice nebari and older trunks with movement. But they have dead primary branches and foliage that has been allowed to grow out or branches that have deteriorated through poor pruning technique or lack thereof. So it is common for these enthusiasts to seek out further techniques to improve older trees or neglected trees. And often in my experience collected trees can benefit from grafting.
I do think it becomes more common for more experienced Bonsai enthusiasts to acquire older stock to work on rather than the younger stock you refer to in a developmental sense. In many cases the older trees can be improved with grafting.
If ones primary focus is on digging up trunks and reselling, or developing from scratch then I see your point.
Lots of room in the hobby for alternate paths to the same destination. A focus on improvement and refinement can often lead to requiring more techniques rather than less.
I suppose one could just scrap those that require extra technique or effort, but that seems not quite "cricket"
I see your points!
Over here at least I dont think ive ever seen a collected/yamadori deciduous tree that needed to have branches grafted on. Its rarely even spoken about. Look at the trees even coming out of Croatia, or the Hawthorns and Elms from the UK. Often they just work with whats there and usually these trees have plenty to work with and back bud readily. They prefer to train branches into negative spaces rather than put new ones on. If theres no branches on the lower trunk they work with whats on top and make an informal broom out of it.
I think you could add a number 5 to your list. 5 Aesthetics, If one is focusing on the Japanese style of bonsai in regards to left branch, right branch, back branch and so on, maybe theres more onus into getting those extra branches where you need them, to fit that type of style. In other cultures bonsai is definitely less rigid.

'I suppose one could just scrap those that require extra technique or effort, but that seems not quite "cricket"'
I tend to just not select them. Usually when im selecting stock, its because im a bit bored and want something new to work on, so I tend to select trees that already have plenty bones to work with, ive wasted enough money on poor material over the years, if I cant get something that ticks the boxes I just wait it out and try to make more of what I have. As in, these days ive gotten some joy from developing bits from scratch, root cuttings, branch cuttings etc and even those are producing plenty of bones for me to work with.
 
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sorce

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What do the roots look like?

I wouldn't worry about chopping it until you get the roots nice, that might could use the power of the whole thing growing.

Besides that....
I find it counterproductive to chop to a "new leader"(I despisethat term), until it's worthy of being followed.

Best to keep the top relatively trimmed, or, from shading out dude, till it's already a Proper Next Segment.

Not only will it then contain enough foliage to further safely move forward with repotting and such, but the girth will allow resources to keep flowing around the wound you need to heal, rather than dying.

If it's just a twig, it won't succeed in healing anything until most of the wound is already rotting away.

"Build to cut, don't cut to build."

Hell with grafting, less were speaking of roots.

Sorce
 

jimlau

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What do the roots look like?

I wouldn't worry about chopping it until you get the roots nice, that might could use the power of the whole thing growing.

Besides that....
I find it counterproductive to chop to a "new leader"(I despisethat term), until it's worthy of being followed.

Best to keep the top relatively trimmed, or, from shading out dude, till it's already a Proper Next Segment.

Not only will it then contain enough foliage to further safely move forward with repotting and such, but the girth will allow resources to keep flowing around the wound you need to heal, rather than dying.

If it's just a twig, it won't succeed in healing anything until most of the wound is already rotting away.

"Build to cut, don't cut to build."

Hell with grafting, less were speaking of roots.

Sorce
The tree is healthy and in a garden pot, not a shallow bonsai pot {~8" deep, 8" diameter}. the strongest/thickest branch is in the upper right of photo 2. But it's a bit high. It would leave a long section of the trunk without much taper.

I am actually leaning towards the branch below that on the other side, but it is younger and thinner. It's in a good spot tho.

If I did that chop, I would have 4-5 small branches left. I have already removed the top foliage, which was about 3-4 times what it has now. If I did that i'm not sure if I would be leaving too few leaves and not enough energy to make that new, young leader thrive.

Thanks.
 

Shibui

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So from the front view, the width of the trunk is not reduced by any chop? The trunk would go from the current 2+" to the new leader which is currently 1/8"? Adding 1 of the 2 angled chops would not be advisable, even if it provides some taper?
Large trunk chops are done in several stages to get best results. Making a big chop too close to a weak leader can kill that shoot. Cut a bit above to allow the sap to flow to the new leader then when it is growing well make the final angle cut, seal and allow the new leader to grow to heal the chop and thicken to match the section below. You'll probably need to do a series of grow and chops to get good trunk taper right to the new top.
If you already have a strong new leader or thinner trunk it is possible to go straight to the angle cut. The bigger the difference you should consider staging the chop as above.

I would expect to see more new buds grow from the trunk below the chop site after a big chop like this on trident maple.
 
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