Where to trunk chop bald cypress, in relation to finished height...

[Vinnie Charity]

So, I have a Bald Cypress (BC) with roughly a 2-3" trunk at the base...



I'm wondering where to chop it, in relation to the finished height?

I'm going for a formal upright for this tree, with around 5-6" of girth for the base, roughly 3' high (1:6 ratio), with a fairly smooth taper all the way to the apex...



I understand pretty much all of it except where to do the initial chop. Can any of the more experienced help shed some light on this subject?

Thanks in advance...

 

[Shibui]

I'm not aware of any set formula for chop height. I normally aim for around 1/3 of final height cause that's where the first bend and branch is likely to be. In this case your chop is mainly to develop taper so might need to go a bit lower to get your 1:6 taper started.
New leaders on BC don't always grow as planned so be prepared to redo a chop if the new leader does not co-operate.

 

[sorce]

I'd throw it in a pond and cut it in a different decade.

Thing is...dem swamp BC's can get chopped, grow some branches and be done.
Cuz they got those swamp bases.

I'm not saying working a nursery one is futile....
Wait.Yes....yes I am.

Sorce

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

True formal upright is a very difficult style, well worth the effort, because it is rare to see a good one.

I would start the trunk chopping early, because you want smooth healing. One 6th of final height instead of the usually 1/3rd recommendation. That would be 6 inches. Your new leaders might not cooperate, you might end up using an even lower leader if it is positioned correctly. Don't worry, just go with it. Let the new leader grow until it is more than half the diameter of the segment below, even if it means letting it get to 6 feet or more tall. Then chop again, adding a little less height than the first segment. Each segment should be shorter than the previous. You will end up with 6 or more segments. It will take time, possibly more than a decade. Key is a smooth taper trunk that is ram rod straight. Too much wiggle, and you have an informal upright. Very difficult to do. But good luck. Bald Cypress can do this style.

If you have multiple trees with which to experiment - you can alternately try a second tactic. NO TRUNK CHOPS AT ALL. Here you let the tree get to finished height, and keep it there. Taper is developed by repeated growing out of sacrifice branches and then removing the sacrifices. Bald Cypress back bud reliably, so removing all the branches from a trunk is not an issue. Keep the trunk straight and free of chop scars that create the zig-zag look.

 

[Vinnie Charity]

I'd throw it in a pond and cut it in a different decade.

Thing is...dem swamp BC's can get chopped, grow some branches and be done.
Cuz they got those swamp bases.

I'm not saying working a nursery one is futile....
Wait.Yes....yes I am.

Sorce

I currently have it submerged and yes, it will take quite a long time to get that fluted base I love so much on Bald Cypresses.

It's growing super fast in the submerged pot, I'm guessing in the next 8-10 years it will be a decent looking tree, it's just currently too tall so a chop is inevitable.

Just want to learn the right way because Formal Upright is THE most difficult...

 

[Vinnie Charity]

True formal upright is a very difficult style, well worth the effort, because it is rare to see a good one.

I would start the trunk chopping early, because you want smooth healing. One 6th of final height instead of the usually 1/3rd recommendation. That would be 6 inches. Your new leaders might not cooperate, you might end up using an even lower leader if it is positioned correctly. Don't worry, just go with it. Let the new leader grow until it is more than half the diameter of the segment below, even if it means letting it get to 6 feet or more tall. Then chop again, adding a little less height than the first segment. Each segment should be shorter than the previous. You will end up with 6 or more segments. It will take time, possibly more than a decade. Key is a smooth taper trunk that is ram rod straight. Too much wiggle, and you have an informal upright. Very difficult to do. But good luck. Bald Cypress can do this style.

If you have multiple trees with which to experiment - you can alternately try a second tactic. NO TRUNK CHOPS AT ALL. Here you let the tree get to finished height, and keep it there. Taper is developed by repeated growing out of sacrifice branches and then removing the sacrifices. Bald Cypress back bud reliably, so removing all the branches from a trunk is not an issue. Keep the trunk straight and free of chop scars that create the zig-zag look.

This is exactly what I was looking for @Leo in N E Illinois, and I was actually thinking of cutting it right at that first branch, then wiring it up as the new leader. I'll wait until early Spring to do this.

I did the initial straightening with the piece of rebar you see in the photo. They grow so fast that the wires bite in a matter of weeks, even when wrapped in tubing, so I'll have to stay on top of it.

I'm not fully understanding your no trunk chop method. Are you saying let the tree send all of it's energy to branches and NOT the apex, then remove all of them and start over? I would assume this would keep the tree from growing too tall too fast, if I'm understanding your method.

Thanks as always, for your tutelage...

 

[rockm]

So, I have a Bald Cypress (BC) with roughly a 2-3" trunk at the base...

View attachment 249093

I'm wondering where to chop it, in relation to the finished height?

I'm going for a formal upright for this tree, with around 5-6" of girth for the base, roughly 3' high (1:6 ratio), with a fairly smooth taper all the way to the apex...

View attachment 249095

I understand pretty much all of it except where to do the initial chop. Can any of the more experienced help shed some light on this subject?

Thanks in advance...

If you want a six inch diameter trunk on that, then chopping it (or even considering chopping it) at this point negates that goal, or pushes down the road eight or nine years. Forget "final" chop height. You want a lot of straight up growth. Plant it in the ground and let it alone for six years, THEN come back and consider the chop. You will probably have a VERY different tree then.

I understand that the "plant it, leave it" thing isn't what you want to hear, but if your goals are as listed, then that's what you should do.

FWIW, I would completely forget about the "formal upright" final image. That's probably not what you're going to wind up with since BC are notable for many quirks. Keeping it in line in a rigid upright image prolly ain't worth the trouble.

 

[Vinnie Charity]

Planting it in the ground would be my first choice for trunk thickening, but we are planning to build a new home very soon and I don't have a really good place in my yard to plant it.

My original plan was to let it grow to thicken it, but some are saying that chopping it will make it thicken faster, which doesn't make much sense to me, but these people have the trees to show for it so I decided to create this post.

Also considering slip potting it into a much larger pot and keeping it submerged in a cement mixing tub. When we get the new home, it will be going in the ground, with a bunch of other material for sure.

If Formal Upright doesn't work, I'll just have to go with what the tree decides to be, and if it is to become an Informal Upright, then so be it.

Thanks @rockm, I always appreciate your feedback...

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

This is exactly what I was looking for @Leo in N E Illinois, and I was actually thinking of cutting it right at that first branch, then wiring it up as the new leader. I'll wait until early Spring to do this.

I did the initial straightening with the piece of rebar you see in the photo. They grow so fast that the wires bite in a matter of weeks, even when wrapped in tubing, so I'll have to stay on top of it.

I'm not fully understanding your no trunk chop method. Are you saying let the tree send all of it's energy to branches and NOT the apex, then remove all of them and start over? I would assume this would keep the tree from growing too tall too fast, if I'm understanding your method.

Thanks as always, for your tutelage...

"I was told" by Ann Morris, one of my first bonsai teachers. I have not tried it. So I would be winging it also. It is "more true" than apocryphal "read it on the internet" but I have not done it.

A related technique, is controlling growth in a cascade azalea, or any cascade. You have to keep pruning the strong upper parts much more often than the lower parts to keep the tree balanced. Apical dominance will cause the upper parts of a cascade to grow much more rapidly than the lowest. I have been pruning the "above the rim" of the pot of the cascade I just posted in "Flowers 2019" three times a year where the lowest parts get pruned and wired once a year. Still the leaves are not balanced. The lower leaves are larger, due to less ramification, due to less pruning.

Similar in the "no trunk chop" technique, you are supposed to achieve taper by controlling grow where you want to keep trunk slender, and use rapidly growing sacrifices to fatten up the nebari and lower trunk.

Theory makes some sense, but like I said, I have not tried to make it work.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The tried and true, grow it out until you achieve desired trunk diameter, then chop to 1/3rd or 1/6th, then grow next segment until it's diameter is more than half of the previous segment. This IS a tried and proven method.

 

[rockm]

Planting it in the ground would be my first choice for trunk thickening, but we are planning to build a new home very soon and I don't have a really good place in my yard to plant it.

My original plan was to let it grow to thicken it, but some are saying that chopping it will make it thicken faster, which doesn't make much sense to me, but these people have the trees to show for it so I decided to create this post.

Also considering slip potting it into a much larger pot and keeping it submerged in a cement mixing tub. When we get the new home, it will be going in the ground, with a bunch of other material for sure.

If Formal Upright doesn't work, I'll just have to go with what the tree decides to be, and if it is to become an Informal Upright, then so be it.

Thanks @rockm, I always appreciate your feedback...

In a container your progress will be slow. Slower if you insist on chopping it. I did this exact same thing with my oldest BC. Container grown for over 20 years. I could have accomplished the same in half the time, knowing what I know now With BC, increasing trunk size is all about root run. The more room, they faster it will develop. The thought that chopping it will make it increase in trunk diameter is not all that productive with this species. Trunk diameter is sped up by top growth and root growth. The more there is, the quicker things go.

If you have no room for it in the yard now, wait until you do before you begin developing it. Just don't chop it now.

 

[Vinnie Charity]

The tried and true, grow it out until you achieve desired trunk diameter, then chop to 1/3rd or 1/6th, then grow next segment until it's diameter is more than half of the previous segment. This IS a tried and proven method.

I like this method better as it makes more sense to me so I'm going to let it grow for now.

Next year the plan is to get it in a large training pot with decent soil (nothing fancy like Akadama and Pumice) and keep it submerged. I will continue fertilizing it hard, it likes that, and all of the wire bite marks from having it tied to the rebar have nearly vanished in 3 weeks, it's crazy how fast it's healing.

The new plan is to do one of the following...

Maybe I'll bury the pot in the ground with opening for the roots to escape to make it grow faster AND make it easier to move when we move into the new house.

Maybe I'll just repot next year into the larger pot and submerge it.

We will see...

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@rockm is correct. The minute you chop a trunk, you are radically slowing the increase in the diameter. I never meant to mislead, into thinking chopping would speed up thickening of the trunk diameter. It slows down diameter increase.

If you have to container grow, don't chop until you are satisfied with the diameter.

 

[Vinnie Charity]

In a container your progress will be slow. Slower if you insist on chopping it. I did this exact same thing with my oldest BC. Container grown for over 20 years. I could have accomplished the same in half the time, knowing what I know now With BC, increasing trunk size is all about root run. The more room, they faster it will develop. The thought that chopping it will make it increase in trunk diameter is not all that productive with this species. Trunk diameter is sped up by top growth and root growth. The more there is, the quicker things go.

If you have no room for it in the yard now, wait until you do before you begin developing it. Just don't chop it now.

Good to know @rockm, and I've never understood why people think that chopping will help trees thicken. I'm just going to let it grow until it gets close to the thickness I want, then start developing the tree.

What kind of container did you have it in? I'm planning to put it in a large bonsai training pot, one of those plastic ones that looks like an unglazed pot, then keep it in water up to the rim of said pot.

 

[Vinnie Charity]

@rockm is correct. The minute you chop a trunk, you are radically slowing the increase in the diameter. I never meant to mislead, into thinking chopping would speed up thickening of the trunk diameter. It slows down diameter increase.

If you have to container grow, don't chop until you are satisfied with the diameter.

Sounds good Leo, I'm just going to roll with that for now. This is the biggest of my BC and it's the one I want to grow largest. The others are going in a forest planting next year.

For now, I'll just repot next spring and keep it in the water until it thickens up closer to the 4-6" trunk I want, then I'll start development on the tree.

Thanks for both of your help...

 

[rockm]

Good to know @rockm, and I've never understood why people think that chopping will help trees thicken. I'm just going to let it grow until it gets close to the thickness I want, then start developing the tree.

What kind of container did you have it in? I'm planning to put it in a large bonsai training pot, one of those plastic ones that looks like an unglazed pot, then keep it in water up to the rim of said pot.

It move around over the years from big pot to big pot. I had it in a five gallon deep glazed oval Chinese pot (about 24" X 16" x 5") I picked up for about $30 for a long time ago. I submerged it for a while. I stopped doing that. Not all that necessary, IMO (which is another can of worms.),Used a heavy water retaining potting mix heavy on organics instead. Research has backed the thinking that submersion can slow development of younger BC...Let the shitstorm begin ;-)

 

[Vinnie Charity]

Some people love it, some people hate it, but once I submerged mine, the growth took off. It makes sense, as the trees thicken because there is more water traveling through the vascular tissue.

I would assume though that 2 identical trees, one in basic soil that is submerged and one in great soil (like Akadama, pumice, and potting soil for example) would thicken equally but I have no way of quantifying that.

I can say that this BC, which is my biggest, is in a fairly small pot and grows faster than the next biggest one, which is in a much larger pot.

I'd love to debate on what everyone else is doing and what they think is best, but the word shitstorm comes to my mind as well...

 

[Wilson]

Some good information being shared here. I will be happy to follow your progress, and any debate about how to achieve better growth. I have a whole bunch in pots, since I can't really ground grow up here.

 

[JoeH]

As a side note, I had one of mine get accidentally deeply submerged with our heave rains last week, when I checked on it, it was rooting out higher up on the trunk. I left the roots be to see what would happen with them.

 

[JoeH]

Some good information being shared here. I will be happy to follow your progress, and any debate about how to achieve better growth. I have a whole bunch in pots, since I can't really ground grow up here.

the two I have are both pot grown nursery stock submerged all thru the growing season, then in dormancy just in non-draining pots. here they grow like crazy in the summer.