Which has more potential?

Scrogdor

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Looking to buy one of these Pre-Bonsai Japanese maples. Both are the same price. Curious which one looks better to work with for the next several years growing in a pot. Some concerns I have with each below. Attached some pictures, zoom in if you have to.
1. (The short one)
** I like the height of this and the first branch more, but I can’t see any leaders growing off the main trunk besides that first branch. Makes me think there is some significant die back.

2. (The tall one).
**This one doesn’t have any distinguished first branches, but it has two clear main branches growing off the trunk chop.
 

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QuantumSparky

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I think the decision is not as tough as it seems - they're both fine choices to my eye. Depending on the final height you're looking for, either one would probably be better chopped way further down anyway so in that case, current leader options don't quite matter.

The trunks of both look a bit boring unless you're going for a formal upright, and that matters much less if you want to do an informal upright instead because further trunk chops will add all the movement you need.

As for roots and trunk base, I can't get a sense of it from the photos but they seem similar. Many people will tell you to ignore everything above the first inch or two since that can easily be changed.

If you don't want to chop, I do see a potential leader for the first tree on the top left of the trunk - you'd just have to chop diagonally and wire the branch straight up. Just because it's a young shoot doesn't mean it won't grow into a nicely tapered leader.

If I was forced to choose a tree, I like the second one. It doesn't have an established first branch but you can likely get one through backbudding from another chop. The first tree is kinda forcing you to use a first branch that seems hard to wire into shape. Just my noob thoughts on the matter :)
 

Scrogdor

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I think the decision is not as tough as it seems - they're both fine choices to my eye. Depending on the final height you're looking for, either one would probably be better chopped way further down anyway so in that case, current leader options don't quite matter.

The trunks of both look a bit boring unless you're going for a formal upright, and that matters much less if you want to do an informal upright instead because further trunk chops will add all the movement you need.

As for roots and trunk base, I can't get a sense of it from the photos but they seem similar. Many people will tell you to ignore everything above the first inch or two since that can easily be changed.

If you don't want to chop, I do see a potential leader for the first tree on the top left of the trunk - you'd just have to chop diagonally and wire the branch straight up. Just because it's a young shoot doesn't mean it won't grow into a nicely tapered leader.

If I was forced to choose a tree, I like the second one. It doesn't have an established first branch but you can likely get one through backbudding from another chop. The first tree is kinda forcing you to use a first branch that seems hard to wire into shape. Just my noob thoughts on the matter :)
I was thinking the second tree as well. I wouldn’t mind trunk chopping, what I am worried about is the fact that they wouldn’t be planted in the ground. I know that would significantly slow another trunk chop.

I didn’t think about wiring that first branch straight up though on the first one.
 

_#1_

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Always start from the bottom as it's the most difficult to develop.

Being both are pretty much the same based on the pics; how's the nebari?
 

Scrogdor

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Hard to tell from the online post. But here’s the pics.
First pic is the smaller tree on the left. Second two are the taller tree on the right
 

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clem

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i agree with Potawatomi13 because of poor nebari, poor tapper, poor trunk line, very big scars

@Scrogdor May i ask the price of those field grown JM ?
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Unless you can see the root spread, I’d pass. It will take a long time to correct the base of nursery stock trees. Then, the trunks have no movement or taper. Tempting I’m sure, but you’re looking at 20 year projects without even dynamic trunks. Better to start with something smaller, but of good quality and spend the time growing it out properly.
 

Bonsai Nut

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Always start from the bottom as it's the most difficult to develop.

Being both are pretty much the same based on the pics; how's the nebari?
Agree. Never buy a bonsai because of the branches unless you are buying a show-ready tree and all the other elements are perfect.

In order from most important to least:
(1) Nebari
(2) Trunk line and taper
(3) Branches

Neither of these trees are particularly appealing, in my opinion, because of the significant amount of work that needs to be done to both. Someone just stuck some Japanese maples in a field, let them grow for a few years, and then trunk chopped them and dug them out. They are missing root work and trunk work... both of which are more important than trunk diameter which appears to be the sole focus here. Bigger is not always better - particularly if it means bigger problems to fix.
 
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Paradox

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I agree with Brian and Greg.
Neither of these are very inspiring.
Not sure what the price point is on these but you can probably find better
 

Scrogdor

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I agree with Brian and Greg.
Neither of these are very inspiring.
Not sure what the price point is on these but you can probably find better
They’re 200 each. Does anyone have some good sources for Maples and or Oaks? I’ve thought about just going to a nursery and buying a maple and chopping it to get some good starter material, but they are all at the same price point as those, if not more expensive.
 

Scrogdor

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Neither! Straight trunk=Boring. Personally would WAIT for interesting moving trunk☺️. Many many to be found pretty near you.
I had a nice one coming with some good trunk movement that I got on the cheap, unfortunately it’s been in transit for almost 10 days now. I believe hurricane ida caused some kind of delay when the package was traveling through that area.

Not expecting it to be in great health when it arrives, also heard trees suffer permanent damage when they go that long without water or sun.
 

Bonsai Nut

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The crazy thing about Japanese maples is that they are so popular for landscape I've seen landscape trees that size going for $200. So I don't think they are unreasonably priced, per se. However both need a ton of work so that you would be better off, in my opinion, spending $200 on a proper pre-bonsai that is half as large or even less - but that you are moving forward with from the day you get it home. Both of these trees would require you to move backwards for a number of years to address fundamental issues. You would hear people telling you "air layer with girdle at an angle, then recut the pruning scar at an angle and carve the wood underneath to focus on healing the cut without leaving a big lump". Fast forward a decade, and you could have the bones of a striking tree... but until then you'd have a stump in the ground.
 

Scrogdor

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The crazy thing about Japanese maples is that they are so popular for landscape I've seen landscape trees that size going for $200. So I don't think they are unreasonably priced, per se. However both need a ton of work so that you would be better off, in my opinion, spending $200 on a proper pre-bonsai that is half as large or even less - but that you are moving forward with from the day you get it home. Both of these trees would require you to move backwards for a number of years to address fundamental issues. You would hear people telling you "air layer with girdle at an angle, then recut the pruning scar at an angle and carve the wood underneath to focus on healing the cut without leaving a big lump". Fast forward a decade, and you could have the bones of a striking tree... but until then you'd have a stump in the ground.
That’s a good way to put it! I will continue to hunt then! I’m still pretty new but I’ll make sure to look for nebari first.
 

Forsoothe!

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Also remember that the wider the trunk, the longer it will take to grow taper from a landscaping-grown tree, so while smaller might not be better, smaller is faster to tapered bonsai.
 

sorce

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The most important thing that needs to be addressed, is the individual starting point from which one considers potential.

For me, this rapidly moves to a discussion about airlayers and how well they take/your skill to accomplish them. I defer to @0soyoung for layers, and Maple folks for Maples.

Price is subjective. Potential is subjective.

The most glaring thing for me, is such a large trunk, potted in what may be the most inappropriate way for a bonsai.

A Bonsai isn't trunk alone, it isn't Nebari alone, it isn't a pot or design alone.
It is all of these things at once.
Starting at the base is just the appropriate way to organize the process.

This severely lowers the level of potential for me.

In the same as I wouldn't buy a car made entirely by Goodyear. Or a car that doesn't work just because it has shiny new tires, I wouldn't buy a tree with just a trunk.

What is the starting point from which you consider potential?

Many of us lack the education from observation required to answer this question. Which is why we witness the runaround, rather than simply following the one path forward.

Until the question is answered, everything remains subjective.

Sorce
 

Paradox

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They’re 200 each. Does anyone have some good sources for Maples and or Oaks? I’ve thought about just going to a nursery and buying a maple and chopping it to get some good starter material, but they are all at the same price point as those, if not more expensive.

You can find a nice starter tree that was grown for bonsai in mind for that price.
I suggest keep adding to the funds until you find something that is already well on its way but just needs more development.
Brussels Bonsai has some really good starter trident maples for around $300. I found that to be a reasonable price for a decent starter with a trunk and a decent base and I bought one of them myself this summer. Yes it will still need work for better nebari and branching but its got a good start, better than what you're buying with these trees at $200.
 

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How do J. maples fair in zone 10a?

Can they go dormant naturally??
 
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