Which species of Trident maple does this look like?

[Flabonsai]

I bought some seeds off Ebay about 6 years ago and they were supposed to be taiwanese. I live in south florida zone 10a and I was looking for a thicker leaf trident for the strong sun and heat down here. They have done really well this far south so far and are going on 7 years from seed. I just wanted to check to see if these look like taiwanese.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

This was a good ego check for me

I was about to write a post about Trident Maples being all the same species... until I did a little research and found that there is actually a sub-species of Trident Maple native to Taiwan. It is found in lowland forest in two small locations on that island. As a variety (versus cultivar) it seeds true. I don't know enough about the variety to comment, except to say that your Tridents don't look anything I have ever seen

 

[Smoke]

A. buergerianum integrifolium "Maruba Tokaede" (round leaves)

 

[Smoke]

This was a good ego check for me

I was about to write a post about Trident Maples being all the same species... until I did a little research and found that there is actually a sub-species of Trident Maple native to Taiwan. It is found in lowland forest in two small locations on that island. As a variety (versus cultivar) it seeds true. I don't know enough about the variety to comment, except to say that your Tridents don't look anything I have ever seen

If you click on my blog in the signature line I have a whole write up on trident maples there with pictures of the many species I have had. There are many more species of trident that I havn't had.

Mostly what we see is A. buergerianum Trifidium. Just regular old trident maple.

 

[Melospiza]

Must be the straight species. The leaves look pretty much like those on the trees used in landscaping in Atlanta, GA (and presumably elsewhere in the south).

 

[Shibui]

Those leaves look very close to the Taiwan maple I have here so I guess, given the seed was named you can be reasonably confident.
I posted a photo in the maple flower thread post #38 https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/the-elusive-maple-flower.37387/page-2
Not a good shot of the leaves because the seeds were the aim but I think you can make out a couple of leaves there.
note that Taiwan trun k is quite slow to thicken and it does not ramify as well as normal trident.

Must be the straight species. The leaves look pretty much like those on the trees used in landscaping in Atlanta, GA (and presumably elsewhere in the south).

As the normal trident matures, especially as a larger, landscape tree the leaves do elongate and look somewhat different to those we normally see on our bonsai. Even though they look different these are the same sort we grow. seeds from them will grow seedlings the same as our standard bonsai tridents. Taiwan maple has these longer, spade shaped leaves from the start. Also, as alluded to, leaves are much thicker, almost leathery or succulent. My Taiwan, and others I have seen, flower and set seed much younger and much more than standard Trident.

 

[Flabonsai]

Those leaves look very close to the Taiwan maple I have here so I guess, given the seed was named you can be reasonably confident.
I posted a photo in the maple flower thread post #38 https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/the-elusive-maple-flower.37387/page-2
Not a good shot of the leaves because the seeds were the aim but I think you can make out a couple of leaves there.
note that Taiwan trun k is quite slow to thicken and it does not ramify as well as normal trident.



As the normal trident matures, especially as a larger, landscape tree the leaves do elongate and look somewhat different to those we normally see on our bonsai. Even though they look different these are the same sort we grow. seeds from them will grow seedlings the same as our standard bonsai tridents. Taiwan maple has these longer, spade shaped leaves from the start. Also, as alluded to, leaves are much thicker, almost leathery or succulent. My Taiwan, and others I have seen, flower and set seed much younger and much more than standard Trident.

I bought the seeds back in 2013 on Ebay from someone from Australia and the listing said they were rare Taiwan maple and they were $35 for 100. So hopefully they are.

 

[JoeR]

In any case, I much prefer the smoother/rounder look of the Taiwanese variety, as opposed to the tridents I have with almost Acer rubrum like leaves. I have one seedling that has leaves somewhat like that, but it’s doubtful it’s the true Taiwanese one.

 

[Crawforde]

if You make some cuttings next time you prune it, I would happily take some off your hands.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

If you click on my blog in the signature line I have a whole write up on trident maples there with pictures of the many species I have had.

My original post may have been confusing. What I meant to say is that I thought trident maples were all Acer buergeranum. There are numerous cultivars, but I was not aware of any sub-species. Therefore I was about to launch into my standard "because you grew these from seed, there is no way to know if they are true to parent, so what you have is a generic A. buergeranum without cultivar name". However that is when I did a little research and found that there are two (?) sub-species that seed true to type:
Acer buergeranum formosanum and Acer buergeranum integrifolium. If you have seeds from one of those two, they will seed true. Seeds from any of the cultivars, however, will not.

 

[Flabonsai]

My original post may have been confusing. What I meant to say is that I thought trident maples were all Acer buergeranum. There are numerous cultivars, but I was not aware of any sub-species. Therefore I was about to launch into my standard "because you grew these from seed, there is no way to know if they are true to parent, so what you have is a generic A. buergeranum without cultivar name". However that is when I did a little research and found that there are two (?) sub-species that seed true to type:
Acer buergeranum formosanum and Acer buergeranum integrifolium. If you have seeds from one of those two, they will seed true. Seeds from any of the cultivars, however, will not.

I think I would say its a Acer buergeranum formosanum from looking more at the pictures. Its definitely different from any of my other tridents I've owned. It almost looks like 2 different species. Some of the leaves are rounded and some have more of a point. I did some cuttings a few years ago and they all took. So I'm going to try to keep this species going as I've had good luck down here in south Florida with this type and all my other tridents never did real good and they all slowly died. Maybe it's also because they have been grown from seed this far south and got used to the warmer weather. The leaves on this species do seem thicker so they dont burn as bad as regular tridents.

 

[Shibui]

I will be interested to see how well these Taiwan maples do in your area and how you find them for ramification when you get that far.

I've been supplying standard trident seed to a grower in sub tropical Queensland. He says there is enough genetic variation in trident seeds that some are more tolerant of warmer climate than others so each year he germinates several hundred seedlings but only works with the few that survive in his climate. Might be worth trying in South Florida?

 

[Smoke]

I think I would say its a Acer buergeranum formosanum from looking more at the pictures. Its definitely different from any of my other tridents I've owned. It almost looks like 2 different species. Some of the leaves are rounded and some have more of a point. I did some cuttings a few years ago and they all took. So I'm going to try to keep this species going as I've had good luck down here in south Florida with this type and all my other tridents never did real good and they all slowly died. Maybe it's also because they have been grown from seed this far south and got used to the warmer weather. The leaves on this species do seem thicker so they dont burn as bad as regular tridents.

Where are you looking at pictures?

 

[Shima]

I put this up May 18, 2016 on a thread titled " Miyasama Trident Maple w/ roughbark"

Good luck with this. If it's a true Taiwan Trident (Acer buergerianum Miq. var. formosanum) the seeds are sterile, and almost impossible to layer. Extremely rare and endangered. http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/31335/0. I put up mine on Facebook and created quite a stir. Michael Ryan Bell's logo tree is a shohin true Taiwan Trident.

Mind didn't like it here.

 

[Smoke]

1998!

Hell according to that the species should be extinct by now. I'm going to Ed Clarks Saturday to look for trees. The largest maple wholesaler on the west coast back in the day. Worked directly with J D Vertrees and Koto Matsubara. I'll bring back whats going on from the horses mouth. The habitat in the Pan Pacific may be endangered but they are around and established at places that carry them for the ornamental trade. Murayama Nursery has lots of them in Sacramento.

I prefer Miyasama Yatsabusa. That is a perfect tree for bonsai. Formosanum is not very good.

 

[Flabonsai]

Where are you looking at pictures?

I looked on https://mrmaple.com/products/buy-acer-buergerianum-ssp-formosanum-taiwanese-trident-maple

Also I googled Formosanum and looked under images. I'm not going to say its 100% but looks kind of the close to it.

 

[Flabonsai]

1998!

Hell according to that the species should be extinct by now. I'm going to Ed Clarks Saturday to look for trees. The largest maple wholesaler on the west coast back in the day. Worked directly with J D Vertrees and Koto Matsubara. I'll bring back whats going on from the horses mouth. The habitat in the Pan Pacific may be endangered but they are around and established at places that carry them for the ornamental trade. Murayama Nursery has lots of them in Sacramento.

I prefer Miyasama Yatsabusa. That is a perfect tree for bonsai. Formosanum is not very good.

Smoke, I just looked up Miyasama Yatsabusa and it looks like that to lol. I'm going to try to get better pictures over the weekend of the trees.

 

[Smoke]

Do not, I repeat do not look up images of any kind of maple on the internet. It is severely unreliable. Even the images that some of these so called experts show of the species are from google images that they steal and use in their ads. Especially on seeds. You will never get plants that look like the ad copy they use. But the book, Japanese maples by J D Vertrees. It has the proper photo's of the species in there.

Trident leaves are very variable on the tree depending on conditions and growing region, fertilizer, cross pollination, and water. Everyone says to grow from seed. Thats the least reliable of all. First you have to trust where the seed came from and the tree it was collected from, and then know that it was contaminated by any of the factors above. The best true way to propagate tridents is thru cuttings.

Here are some pictures of some of my trees. I know where they came from and who imported the stumps. I trust his sources.

This is trifidium, the most prevalent trident of all. Most street trees, parks and bonsai are grown from this material. It is easy to get, easy to propagate from layer, cutting and seed. Pretty true to form year to year.

The leaf on trifidium is deeply cut between the lobes and the edges are always toothed. The leaves get very large and the cut between the lobes get much deeper as the leaf grows. Most people don't even know what an adult fully grown trident leaf looks like since most bonsai don't get that large unless you really let something go. Like ten feet tall.





Miyasama Yatsabusa has rather small leaves that have smooth leaf margins. The outside lobes go straight across and are not very deeply cut. The color is deep green and the leaves feel heavier and waxy.







Now about variability. Take a look at this shot of one of my trees. I have circled some of the leaves that look nothing like other leaves on the tree. Some of them even look like clover.

 

[Smoke]

Miyasama Yatsubusa

 

[Flabonsai]

Do not, I repeat do not look up images of any kind of maple on the internet. It is severely unreliable. Even the images that some of these so called experts show of the species are from google images that they steal and use in their ads. Especially on seeds. You will never get plants that look like the ad copy they use. But the book, Japanese maples by J D Vertrees. It has the proper photo's of the species in there.

Trident leaves are very variable on the tree depending on conditions and growing region, fertilizer, cross pollination, and water. Everyone says to grow from seed. Thats the least reliable of all. First you have to trust where the seed came from and the tree it was collected from, and then know that it was contaminated by any of the factors above. The best true way to propagate tridents is thru cuttings.

Here are some pictures of some of my trees. I know where they came from and who imported the stumps. I trust his sources.

This is trifidium, the most prevalent trident of all. Most street trees, parks and bonsai are grown from this material. It is easy to get, easy to propagate from layer, cutting and seed. Pretty true to form year to year.

The leaf on trifidium is deeply cut between the lobes and the edges are always toothed. The leaves get very large and the cut between the lobes get much deeper as the leaf grows. Most people don't even know what an adult fully grown trident leaf looks like since most bonsai don't get that large unless you really let something go. Like ten feet tall.

View attachment 236993

View attachment 236997

Miyasama Yatsabusa has rather small leaves that have smooth leaf margins. The outside lobes go straight across and are not very deeply cut. The color is deep green and the leaves feel heavier and waxy.

View attachment 236994

View attachment 236995

View attachment 236996

Now about variability. Take a look at this shot of one of my trees. I have circled some of the leaves that look nothing like other leaves on the tree. Some of them even look like clover.

View attachment 237000

Thank you for posting such great info. I'll have to find that book. These are really great pictures.