Which tree to learn ROR

[maroun.c]

Hi all,
considering trying a ROR and very new at this (and to the whole Bonsai thing) Understand it takes time and effort specifially for ROR.
I'm buying a few very young Elm tress to make a small forest and style a tiny one in a small pot so wondering if I could do one ROR as well. Any No Nos about Elms and ROR? any easier trees to experiment with?
Thanks
Maroun

 

[Alain]

hi there and welcome,

you can definitively use an elm to try a ROR, I am actually doing one since last year


this picture was taken last year, when I potted it, since I removed the wire and the raffia have decayed.
also the rock isn't the good one so I'll have to re-pot it on the right one but that's fine for the moment at it gives time for the roots to grow around a rock anyway (and this rock is a smooth quartz, it will be easy to slip it out without damaging the roots).
also this was my first ROR attempt, it won't be on the cover of next month 'Bonsai addicts magazine'.
although it looks much better than on the above picture now

I am not and expert in ROR but the principle is: first you pick a rock (if it can be the one the tree will actually be on it's better ) you bare root your tree and you dispose the roots on the rock then you tie them to it (raffia is the best because you can firmly attach the roots without damaging them and then it decay with time in the soil which is fine because your roots are maintain by the the soil and don't need raffia anymore).
Then normally you apply peat-muck on the surface of the roots tied to the rock in order to make a sort of cast around the roots.
I never did that because I still don't understand how to make the peat muck so I just put the tree attached to the rock in a pot and I buried all or almost all the rock and roots and let them grow like that.
For the moment I didn't reach the step where you uncover the roots progressively once they have develop around the rock.
I hope that help


PS: otherwise I think any tree could be use as a ROR, but elm is definitively a good choice because they are really tough and forgive a lot of rookie mistakes., that's why the one above is still alive

 

[Adair M]

An elm should work. They're fast growing and tolerant of exposing their roots.

The traditional ROR tree is trident maple. They grow like weeds!

Bare root it at the end of the winter. Bind it tightly to the rock. Be sure to have roots that will extend down below, so they can be in soil.

Typically, you let the tree grow unchecked for several years while the roots thicken and clasp the rock. Then, once you have clasping roots, then the top is chopped, and tree development begins!

If you try to keep the tree small while the roots are developing, it takes much, much longer for the roots to attach to the rock. If they ever do!

 

[sorce]

My thing with ROR....

You gotta find a good rock.
Then find about twelve more...

Have yourself an equal amount of seedlings to start.

Get yourself a tub of water to leave em all sit in barerooted.

Then get to matching up trees with rocks.

Find the right roots for the right grooves.

Pregame....grow the seedlings for a year in really deep pots....hey we found a use for those pots of yours yes?, in non bonsai soil, to promote long stringy root growth.

One rock and one tree won't turn out nice.

Hell, even the nicest ROR's suck IMO.

Sorce

 

[Anthony]

Root over Rock [ ROR really ? Ha ha ha ]

better to just use root cuttings, and learn.

The more you purchase and kill, is directly proportional to how strong is the desire to stay in Bonsai.

Health please before Designs.
I am begging.

Learn to grow elms before trying to create styles, there is enough time, unless you are terminal or ancient [ 99 years old and then you can still live
to be 140+ ]
Good Day
Anthony

 

[AlainK]

You gotta find a good rock.

Wow, yes, that's it!

Next, a lot of species actually can be trained to be 'sekijoju' or 'ishitsuki'.

Easy ones: Cotoneaster horiontalis.

Acer palmatum:

Elms?...

Probably OK, but they will likely shoot new branches on the exposed roots.

 

[sorce]

All that means....

Which is great by the way....

Do it right when you do it.

Start Now!

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

In my post above, I forgot to mention that you start with a very young tree! A one or two year old seedling! Once the roots have hardened at all, they won't bond to the rock. Start with very soft roots do they will lay directly against the rock.

 

[maroun.c]

hi there and welcome,

you can definitively use an elm to try a ROR, I am actually doing one since last year
View attachment 113917

this picture was taken last year, when I potted it, since I removed the wire and the raffia have decayed.
also the rock isn't the good one so I'll have to re-pot it on the right one but that's fine for the moment at it gives time for the roots to grow around a rock anyway (and this rock is a smooth quartz, it will be easy to slip it out without damaging the roots).
also this was my first ROR attempt, it won't be on the cover of next month 'Bonsai addicts magazine'.
although it looks much better than on the above picture now

I am not and expert in ROR but the principle is: first you pick a rock (if it can be the one the tree will actually be on it's better ) you bare root your tree and you dispose the roots on the rock then you tie them to it (raffia is the best because you can firmly attach the roots without damaging them and then it decay with time in the soil which is fine because your roots are maintain by the the soil and don't need raffia anymore).
Then normally you apply peat-muck on the surface of the roots tied to the rock in order to make a sort of cast around the roots.
I never did that because I still don't understand how to make the peat muck so I just put the tree attached to the rock in a pot and I buried all or almost all the rock and roots and let them grow like that.
For the moment I didn't reach the step where you uncover the roots progressively once they have develop around the rock.
I hope that help


PS: otherwise I think any tree could be use as a ROR, but elm is definitively a good choice because they are really tough and forgive a lot of rookie mistakes., that's why the one above is still alive

Thanks for all the info. Only reason I mention elms is cause I'll be getting a few small ones and considered starting with them here's a picture of one

 

[maroun.c]

An elm should work. They're fast growing and tolerant of exposing their roots.

The traditional ROR tree is trident maple. They grow like weeds!

Bare root it at the end of the winter. Bind it tightly to the rock. Be sure to have roots that will extend down below, so they can be in soil.

Typically, you let the tree grow unchecked for several years while the roots thicken and clasp the rock. Then, once you have clasping roots, then the top is chopped, and tree development begins!

If you try to keep the tree small while the roots are developing, it takes much, much longer for the roots to attach to the rock. If they ever do!

Thanks for ur help will start looking for good rocks and plants to start learning on.
As here the idea is to develop roots better would you consider a softer substrate like coco peat or peat moss or other to have faster roots growth? Also would fertilizing with higher phosphate fertilizer speed up the process?

 

[maroun.c]

My thing with ROR....

You gotta find a good rock.
Then find about twelve more...

Have yourself an equal amount of seedlings to start.

Get yourself a tub of water to leave em all sit in barerooted.

Then get to matching up trees with rocks.

Find the right roots for the right grooves.

Pregame....grow the seedlings for a year in really deep pots....hey we found a use for those pots of yours yes?, in non bonsai soil, to promote long stringy root growth.

One rock and one tree won't turn out nice.

Hell, even the nicest ROR's suck IMO.

Sorce

Lol we finally did find a good use of those pots.
And number of my bonsai pots for the wife to watershed I'm on travel just exploded
Thanks for the input will try to see what seedlings I can find. Would coco peat be a good soil for this?
Hope I can find some good rocks.

 

[maroun.c]

As i

Root over Rock [ ROR really ? Ha ha ha ]

better to just use root cuttings, and learn.

The more you purchase and kill, is directly proportional to how strong is the desire to stay in Bonsai.

Health please before Designs.
I am begging.

Learn to grow elms before trying to create styles, there is enough time, unless you are terminal or ancient [ 99 years old and then you can still live
to be 140+ ]
Good Day
Anthony

m starting with a 1 year old tree or younger that is not a big issue I guess although yes makes sense to try not to kill a plant. Not on a rush but don't have the luxury of time.

 

[maroun.c]

Amazin

Wow, yes, that's it!

Next, a lot of species actually can be trained to be 'sekijoju' or 'ishitsuki'.

Easy ones: Cotoneaster horiontalis.

Acer palmatum:

Elms?...

Probably OK, but they will likely shoot new branches on the exposed roots.

Amazing trees you got there. Thanks for your input.
Will try find better Trees and good stones to work with.
Thanks

 

[maroun.c]

In my post above, I forgot to mention that you start with a very young tree! A one or two year old seedling! Once the roots have hardened at all, they won't bond to the rock. Start with very soft roots do they will lay directly against the rock.

Thanks.
Is the Elm I posted above suitable. I'm buying a few similar ones to make a forest and can add a few for ROR. Any idea how old it is?
I also have this Thuja that I'm not sure what to do with so can try with it if suitable?

 

[Adair M]

Thanks.
Is the Elm I posted above suitable. I'm buying a few similar ones to make a forest and can add a few for ROR. Any idea how old it is?
I also have this Thuja that I'm not sure what to do with so can try with it if suitable?
View attachment 113977

No. That tree is too big! Believe it or not!

The base would never appear to sit right on a rock.

It WOULD look great on a board! That's a Chinese elm. It may be an air layer. There is a technique for developing a very broad nebari. It's called the "Ebihara Technique" names after the man who invented it.

MarkyScott shows how it's done on his thread "Ebihara Maples".

It's how to get the nebari to look like this;



And you start off with something like this:




That's a Zelkova. A type of elm.

 

[M. Frary]

Foemina

 

[maroun.c]

No. That tree is too big! Believe it or not!

The base would never appear to sit right on a rock.

It WOULD look great on a board! That's a Chinese elm. It may be an air layer. There is a technique for developing a very broad nebari. It's called the "Ebihara Technique" names after the man who invented it.

MarkyScott shows how it's done on his thread "Ebihara Maples".

It's how to get the nebari to look like this;

View attachment 113985

And you start off with something like this:


View attachment 113989

That's a Zelkova. A type of elm.

On a board it goes, if it's got the tiniest chance of looking half nice as the picture of the one you posted
Will search for that thread. Seems like he's using a small and shallow pot to thicken the trunk though?
Thanks for feeding the addiction, got to go buy me few more smaller trees for all these projects

 

[maroun.c]

How about the thuja I posted a pic of believe it's young enough but would it look nice on a rock when grown?

 

[Adair M]

On a board it goes, if it's got the tiniest chance of looking half nice as the picture of the one you posted
Will search for that thread. Seems like he's using a small and shallow pot to thicken the trunk though?
Thanks for feeding the addiction, got to go buy me few more smaller trees for all these projects

Well, relatively shallow is key. You don't want toots growing down. That's the whole point of screwing the bottom of the trunk to the board. The roots will run across the board, then as soon as they reach the edge, the will go straight down.

So, when you place the board in the pot, put a little soil under the board. The torts will find it!

Next year, pull it up, cut the roots back, leaving the tree screwed to the board, replant for another year. Repeat until you're happy with the roots.

Oh, almost forgot... Be sure to bury the board, and bottom of tree a couple inches under the surface. Roots fatten faster if they're all the way buried under the soil. If they surface, they form bark, and they don't fuse as well.

 

[Tim.E]

You don't want toots growing down

Yeah those toots are the worst