White Bark Pine. Your experience?

August44

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Nothing beats first hand experience and/or confirmation, and this excites the geek/engineer in me, but I am going to have to get a couple more trees (and/or some older material) for that. So in he mean time, maybe you can help me understand a seeming inconsistency between this and what the nursery where I got mine said: "these trees have developed persistent clumps of active buds that remain for decades near the base of the tree and at the base of most of the branches. If the main trunk breaks off, the tree will still have many buds all along its stem to produce new trunks." Assuming all of this information is correct [and I have found no cause to doubt 0soyoung] this seems to suggest the WB pine could have fascicular buts in the absence of needles.

So, am I reading too much into this, maybe a nuance of what is or is not considered "bare wood" (e.g. except for locations like the base of branches), or could this be an exception to the 5 needle pine characteristic?
 

August44

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You lost me here amat….the person at the nursery where you bought your White Bark Pines told you that? So if I knock some of the branches off at the trunk or break the trunk off at the ground we are going to have these clumps of buds start rockin? I attached a picture of one of my White Bark Pines. Pretty easy to see the branches with bare wood and never any needles in that area. It would be nice if they would get buds in that area.

I was told by a local forester that a major factor in the transmission of the rust disease to these tree is humidity and conditions are very ripe with 95-100% humidity for 36 hours straight. I have collected high in these mountains here when it was this way.
 

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amatbrewer

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No real nuance, buds (almost) never appear anywhere other than the bases of needle groups and branch tips is what I meant. I posited only as far as I know and suggested some treatments and observations to make. The scientist/engineer in me always wants to know, so I fiddle and find out - I just love finding things out!

Turn your geek/engineer loose!! :cool:

The nursery tag maybe saves some time exploring how white barks behave. This "persistent clumps ..." thing might even be said of p. strobus. But in the better part of a decade I have had one back bud on 'bare wood' on my little p. strobus 'minima' and it was at the union of a branch and the trunk. I have another standard p. strobus that has been given plenty of stimulus to bud back on 'bare wood' and it never has. Japonicus, on the other hand, has several on his EWP. The nursery tag, though, makes it sound like this occurs quite a bit more often with white barks (i.e., like it should happen spontaneously every season, maybe) and therefore is something I hadn't known. It could be useful or just a nuisance - I dunno. The desirable trait for bonsai, I think, is not having to develop an entirely new branch from the trunk, but just a portion of one, as time goes on.

Darn, looks like I have an excuse to get a few more so I can find out for myself. What a shame.
 

Potawatomi13

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AFAIK, all 5 needle pines have the common characteristic that they only back bud as fascicular buds and 'never' bud on 'bare wood' (that no longer has needles).

Bristlecone family trees grow epicormic sprouts. Five needle family;).
 

Potawatomi13

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I collected some WB Pine last year in the Mts outside of town at elevations 5-7000'. I have included some pictures. They are awful leggy but hoping I can get them to back-bud this year. I am also going to try and collect some larger ones this spring with better branching. Do remember that they get that rust disease and there is no cure for that. I have shown a picture of a mature tree with the rust. Personally, I would suggest Ponderosa and Lodgepole pines for a subject verses WB pine. Peter

As to evil rust disease believe nursery trees and certainly Forest Service seedlings grown from rust resistant trees presently:). Cause and effect vector involved in rust spread. If memory serves correctly beetles main vector of rust. If personal trees fumigated for bugs/fungus diligently should not be able to get foothold unless living among rusty trees producing many spores. Also open fresh wounds present access point for rust spores & beetles. Mostly should not be problem to keep WB Pine any more than other White Pine family tree;). Reminds of need to spray Bristlecones for beetles and Vine maples for mildew come morning:rolleyes:.
 
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Adair M

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AFAIK, all 5 needle pines have the common characteristic that they only back bud as fascicular buds and 'never' bud on 'bare wood' (that no longer has needles).

Careful there, 0so! “Never” is too strong a description for this behavior. Perhaps “rarely” is a better term, or maybe “occasionally”. “Reluctantly”?

I just went out and looked at one of my JWP. Here’s a backbud I found, just starting:


9F44C6A4-FDF0-4AAD-BB27-1E740763E6E9.jpeg

You can see it, right where a wire is going under the branch.

Some cultivars will backbud more than others, but I have found that all my JWP (And I have a dozen of all sorts of cultivars) will backbud on bare wood.
 

0soyoung

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Careful there, 0so! “Never” is too strong a description for this behavior. Perhaps “rarely” is a better term, or maybe “occasionally”. “Reluctantly”?
Maybe it is just me, but I think putting it in quotes = -ish; i.e.,
'never' = never-ish = rarely
'rarely' = rare-ish = usually
'occasionally' = occasionally-ish = almost always
'reluctantly' = I can't wait!
etc.
maybe all instances should be accompanied with :rolleyes:?


btw, nice bud! (as opposed to "nice, bud!") :p
 

amatbrewer

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the person at the nursery where you bought your White Bark Pines told you that? So if I knock some of the branches off at the trunk or break the trunk off at the ground we are going to have these clumps of buds start rockin? I attached a picture of one of my White Bark Pines. Pretty easy to see the branches with bare wood and never any needles in that area. It would be nice if they would get buds in that area.

According to the information on the LeBeau Bamboo Nursery (where I ordered mine from) website: "The Whitebark Pine (Pinus albicaulis) is a short needle conifer that is closely related to the Bristlecone Pine group."
"Because the tops of the trees often get broken off in winter storms, these trees have developed persistent clumps of active buds that remain for decades near the base of the tree and at the base of most of the branches. If the main trunk breaks off, the tree will still have many buds all along its stem to produce new trunks."
Maybe I should have included the Bristlecone Pine info earlier, but since I know squat about Bristlecone Pine, .I did not know if it was relevant. And as it only comes from a single source (I never trust single source data), I can't really account for its accuracy. However this does seems to fit with information provided by BN members (unless we are all getting our information from the same original sources...that would suck but not be the first time it has happened).

If all that has been said in this thread is true, aside for as I understand it the incredibly slow growth of these, it seems to me these should make excellent material for bonsai. If I manage to live to about 150, I might have a presentable tree (check back with me around 2115). In the mean time it seems there is still a lot to be learned about these! So I guess I will work on getting a few more and continue to play...er...um...uh..."experiment", yeah that is what I meant to say, experiment.
 

amatbrewer

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Maybe it is just me, but I think putting it in quotes = -ish; i.e.,
'never' = never-ish = rarely
'rarely' = rare-ish = usually
'occasionally' = occasionally-ish = almost always
'reluctantly' = I can't wait!
etc.
maybe all instances should be accompanied with :rolleyes:?


btw, nice bud! (as opposed to "nice, bud!") :p

I have two rules: NEVER use absolutes, and not in a million years would I exaggerate.
 

Japonicus

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Maybe it is just me, but I think putting it in quotes = -ish; i.e.,
'never' = never-ish = rarely
'rarely' = rare-ish = usually
'occasionally' = occasionally-ish = almost always
'reluctantly' = I can't wait!
etc.
maybe all instances should be accompanied with :rolleyes:?


btw, nice bud! (as opposed to "nice, bud!") :p
I saw that 'never' when I read your post, and as we had previously discussed before
I understood where you were coming from there.
Probably not the thread to keep posting pics in not related, but after Adair posted I had to go inspect
my JWP, one of the Azumas I believe, and I did find several, at and near the top (apically) one second branching down,
and none on the lowest branches I see yet, tree in recovery mode and in my avatar.

BTW professional wiring @Adair M ;)
 
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