White needles on entire jbp

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#1
Hey all,

Its been a while since ive posted. Been busy with work and buying a new home. We have been having an ungodly spring here in chicago. Its more like winter 2

Anyway, i brought my jbp outside about two weeks ago, and the needles seemed a bit pale, but nothing too bad considering ive kept it in a dark garage all winter.

Since ive brought it outside, the needles have gone nearly completely white. I fear ive lost this one. I see the banding and color shift common with needle cast. Ive added a systemic bonide to the soil in hopes itll protect new growth and sprayed once with the spray.

I have not noticed bud push at all. Its still cold (low 50s for highs and upper 30s for lows. Some of the needles come right off when touched. Is this a lost cause or has anyone seen a jbp push while its shedding all of its old disease-ridden needles?
 
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#2
Hey all,

Its been a while since ive posted. Been busy with work and buying a new home. We have been having an ungodly spring here in chicago. Its more like winter 2

Anyway, i brought my jbp outside about two weeks ago, and the needles seemed a bit pale, but nothing too bad considering ive kept it in a dark garage all winter.

Since ive brought it outside, the needles have gone nearly completely white. I fear ive lost this one. I see the banding and color shift common with needle cast. Ive added a systemic bonide to the soil in hopes itll protect new growth and sprayed once with the spray.

I have not noticed bud push at all. Its still cold (low 50s for highs and upper 30s for lows. Some of the needles come right off when touched. Is this a lost cause or has anyone seen a jbp push while its shedding all of its old disease-ridden needles?
Pics? Close ups, in focus, of the buds would be good.
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
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#3
Sounds dead.

I am quite convinced there is 2 ways to GROW Bonsai here. ......
Fully outdoors.
Or in a very well climate controlled greenhouse.

We are simply NEVER going to get the health we need trying to "garage" plants and bring them out.

This 2-4 months of fluctuation is just too much for this situation.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO GARAUNTEE OF SUSTAINABILITY.

Even if we do find a way to keep them alive...

"Finished" trees will continue to decline.

And young trees will NEVER grow well enough to become bonsai.

Winter has never killed any of my trees.
Though Every spring I've had trees not wake up.

Not this year. Everything, even the closest to death, is coming out of winter banging.

I had to fix every other problem. ....
No fall cutting. (Taught regularly)
No spring repotting. (Taught regularly)
More Fermented Fish Fert. (Not MG...taught regularly)

Now I can see nothing needs more winter protection than set on the ground.
Well...except for protection against nursery pot/soil/fert...which just means repotting should take place in Summer 1.

So you can enjoy mad plants that can make just as fine of Bonsai without the Greenhouse. ...........

I'd even bet these JBP I'm seed growing here will do fine on the ground alone.

If not....FTC!

Sorce
 

M. Frary

Bonsai Godzilla
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#4
Now I can see nothing needs more winter protection than set on the ground.
Well...except for protection against nursery pot/soil/fert...which just means repotting should take place in Summer 1.
This statement doesn't make sense.
Why no winter protection?
Except for protection from nursery pot/soil/fert?
Protect from what?

Just set on the ground,no mulch?
You might rethink that one if you get an extra cold,cold snap in winter.
I know you can't repot in spring for some odd reason but most of us do with great success.
Miracle grow,fish shit,poop and whatever else are all just fertiliser. None are better or worse than the rest.
There are some people here who have been putting trees in garages for years with no illl effects.
So in other words what you believe is that. Just a belief or theory. Not a fact.

As for the tree in question.
My guess is it was weak before it went in the garage.
Maybe it got dry once while in there.
Already on the brink,then the sun finished it off.
 
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#5
As for the tree in question.
My guess is it was weak before it went in the garage.
Maybe it got dry once while in there.
Already on the brink,then the sun finished it off.
I have one exhibiting similar symptoms, but not quite "all" white, as OP described. Just needles getting paler. Is there any obvious reason you could think of for this? I recently acquired it, and slippotted it into bonsai soil.

I'm aware of the possibility of the nursery soil not getting wet enough because of the loose bonsai soil allowing water to fall through, but think I've done a pretty good job of watering the root ball, so I doubt it's under watering.
 
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#7
Pines with paling color in or coming out of dormancy always have a root issue. Pale green needles could mean excess soil moisture, root aphids or fungal infection, or a dead/dying tree. White needles are dead needles....
Ahhh! Don't say that! :X

But seriously, thank you for your input. I have some Daconil showing up Monday. Hopefully that'll help! Thankfully, the needles are just pale, not really white.
 
Last edited:

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
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#8
have been putting trees in garages for years with no illl
This can't be proven.
In the same that I smoke a cigarette everyday and live, yet see no ill effects directly after.

The reason people started putting trees in garages spread beyond useful and my argument is it was never needed in the first place.

Except in this case, where it was needed, may work a year or 2, or more even more...

But eventually this weather will....

1. Kill it in the garage.
2. Or kill it cuz it spent the winter in a garage.

The only safe (and by that I mean I personally wouldn't keep something over x sentimental or monetary value any other way) situation....
Is a climate controlled greenhouse to play "proper spring".

Or....the shit has to be meant to live here..
Adapted, local, capable, a "non-flinching winterer".
Whatever it is that allows for this being left out on the ground alone.

The lowest temperature I've seen here was -16F in 2014...
A 3rd floor windowsill year with less protection than now, if it was going to outright kill everything, it would have then.

There IS something about how DE fluffs when Iced, which broken down Akadama can never do..that allows this to be a safer situation

This has yet to be researched.

I don't want to sound like a know It it all...
But my "theory" on not using the garage is more accurate than any theory for using it.

But this too...is behind a cycle of other fucked up shit that people don't want to believe....like fall cutting, spring repotting etc....

The way I see it....this "protection" came about from Less regulated Japanese imports from 1940's-50's....so I'm trying to understand and decipher 50+ years of old stubborn guy BS.!

But I Will find a simpler way, because that's what I do...
Unfortunately, due to the nature of nature, the only real proof I have is my word.

Except for protection from nursery pot/soil/fert
I don't know exactly what I am protecting from....but the results of it is this. 20180412_084258.jpg

Where this one that was super fucked and potted in a half an inch, left under similar unmulched ground protection came out perfect.
20180412_090437.jpg

This is the "thing" ....
I dont know the Cause of this root damage particularly.
But when I see the Effects NOT happening..
I stick with that until the Cause is found, or can just be ignored as it doesn't happen anymore.

In this case, I want to get trees into shallow pots....
Doing so is safer than not...
So I have no real need to find the cause of this damage, I only need to avoid it.

.....sorry for the runaround thoughts...

Sorce
 
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#10
The books I got as a kid (60s70s era) is what befuddled me for the longest time. Buncha trees I never heard of, from a chain of islands climatically equivalent to our mid Atlantic, but maritime. Books made by people in California.

Then here is me at the latitude of Spain but gulf humidity, and Siberian winters.

What could go wrong?
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
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#11
Neither can your theory.
Have you ever put a tree in a garage over winter?
That's kind of the point.....

I don't have to have put a tree in the garage to know I don't need to.

It's what I'm trying to avoid as "useless".

Unless people like wasting their spring "dancing".

My theory can be Proven if any number of people who started using the garage before they knew how to keep trees healthy don't use the garage one year amd witness equal or better health.

The folks in Minnesota have witnessed better health when left out....I have never used it...
How much worse can winter get?

No matter what anyone wants to believe about me and my "nonsense"....
All my shit is based on well researched facts.

Therefore....
I will put my theory against the garage...
Vs.
Anyone's theory FOR it...

And I will win.

Or I can be the ONLY one who doesn't waste good fishing time running trees in and out of a garage, which is fine with me also!

Sorce
 

M. Frary

Bonsai Godzilla
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#12
I will put my theory against the garage...
Vs.
Anyone's theory FOR it...
But without the facts that you've actually done it your argument doesn't hold water.

And I believe the folks in Minnesota have buildings to put trees in. At least one does. Crust or Fourteener. Maybe both. Whoever it is they put barrels of water in there to freeze to help keep it cold.
 

Dav4

Imperial Masterpiece
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#13
I do think people tend to overprotect their trees through the winter, and the results are early bud break or drying out. Still, Chicago has serious winters, and if I wanted to keep jbp up there, they’d need to have fairly serious winter protection. I’d put them on the floor of a garage, cover the pots in wood mulch, water everything and let it freeze solid until spring.
 
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#14
The first glimpse I got of that was balsam firs we put in pots in northern Wisconsin. They were actually for landscaping at a later time.

Left in pots, dirt from the ground, left on tree stumps, full sun, didn’t even water them. At the mercy of deer and anything else. Totally ignored for months at a time. Late August to next June nobody there....still woke up like a boss. Strobus too.

“Hmmm...maybe not all ‘temperate’ trees are made equal.”
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
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#15
But without the facts that you've actually done it your argument doesn't hold water.
It's not about keeping out heads in our asses and our trees in our garages....

It's about pulling them both out and not wasting time and tree health.

I have proved to a degree (-16F actually) but figuratively, that the shallowest bit of roots is safe with no mulch.

I don't know how or why this is so...but that's another thing I really don't need to prove, as long as it keeps working.

I wouldn't know how to put a tree in a garage to witness worse health to come up with facts to support my theory because THAT WOULD BE FUCKING STUPID!

I only need to witness health enough through this year for me to continue building my trees, which so far seems 86.76% good to go.

So after next winter....

I have all the proof I will need.

But.....

Yes...yes .....

I am talking about winter protection from cold.....

But there is also thing where we are also talking about winter protection from heat.

That is EXACTLY THE FUCKED UP SHIT I'm talking about.

Protection and No Protection!

We are protecting from cold and heat!

Or just heat?

Or just cold?

What type of tree?

It depends!

Sorce
 
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#16
Ryan Neil broke it down well (as usual).

Sugars in roots protects from freezing. To what degree? The degree to which foliage has manufactured said sugars.

Unrestrained growth? Sugary fall roots. Well buffered.

Refined tree with defoliation and less summer ferts? Less freeze proof.
 
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#17
Thanks for all the replys. Please see photos here. Im coming to grips with the fact its probably dead. I dont have the money for a grenhouse to store in i wish i did. Any tips to try to keep this alive FFBF4E96-E1F4-459D-A56C-FA291620CED9.jpeg B2F30430-BF5F-4AEB-AE54-95E1888438BE.jpeg
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
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#19
@sorce,

Since you’re thinking about stuff, let me give you some things to “chew on” as Darlene might say!

Re: APL Mix, or Boon Mix. It actually does very well in cold climates. Oh, I know the common complaint, that it “turns to mush” as it freezes and thaws. But, even suppose it does, is that a problem? Or a benefit?

When water freezes, it expands, right? The roots in a pot are contained in a pot that has been vitrified, the pot contains no water, and doesn’t expand. So, when water freezes in the pot, it puts pressure on the walls of the pot. And anything inside the pot. Like roots. And soil particles. Let’s say we used a soil mix that is 100% lava. Lava is pretty hard stuff, and when wet lava freezes it would apply a fair amount of pressure on the potbas well as the roots of the tree. The top of the pot is open, so a lot of the pressure applied to the pot would get directed up and out. The soil might “lift” up. The tree would go along for the ride... or would it? We generally tie the rootball down to the pot with wire! So, the tree would pretty much stay in the same place in the pot while the soil heaved around it. Rubbing the lava particles against the roots as it heaves. Lava has a fairly rough texture. It probably scrapes the bark as it heaves. It might tear some little feeder roots as it moves. Little scratches would tend to dessicate the roots. Tearing the little feeders would do that, too, as well as reduce the tree’s ability to replace that lost water in the tissues.

But, I know what you’re saying, “I don’t use straight lava! I use a mix with DE”. Hmm... is that better? DE is fossilized diatoms. These were tiny animals with shells. These shells, at the microscopic level, are pretty sharp! In fact, DE is sold as an insecticide because it gets into the joint spaces of insects’ ectoskeletons, and by friction drill little holes in them. Which dries out the insects and kills them. Is there any reason to believe that the same thing wouldn’t happen to tree roots?

Now, let’s take akadama. A volcanic clay. When it breaks down into smaller particles, it becomes less gritty and more slimy. So, it allows particles to slide by rather than dig in to roots. It acts as a lubricant rather than an abrasive!

So, rather than harming roots in the winter by breaking down, it’s protecting roots in the winter!

I have a good friend who uses Boon Mix in Minnesota. With no issues. Oh, I’m sure she provides winter protection, but I know she’s a fan of APL!
 
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#20
Ahhh! Don't say that! :X

But seriously, thank you for your input. I have some Daconil showing up Monday. Hopefully that'll help! Thankfully, the needles are just pale, not really white.
Adamantium, its possible that your tree will make it. My tree exhibited what yours is doing, but last year. Fertilize wel all spring summer and fall, dont trim, dont repot, dont do anything. I repotted in spring, and it needed it bad. Im sure thats probably what did it.

Also, in the short term, last year chelated iron, sprinkled on the soil seemed to produce more green long enough for buds to push. Id also enoculate the soil with a systemic fungicide, which i didnt do, sometime before winter.
 

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