Who is the greatest expert [ with grown proof ] on Japanese Black Pines ?

[Anthony]

Okay folks,

as you all know, we grow Japanese Black Pines from seed down here. Been using the information from the Bonsai Today articles, thus far they work. Last stage, getting and keeping the needles small.

However, I must admit all this extra information being posted is somewhat confusing.

So I thought it might be wise to talk to the greatest expert or experts on J.B.Pines.

I will however be honest and say, I think we have it all in harmony, and perhaps what is missing is the confidence that will come with more time [ as experience and further testing.]

If this is an idiot's request, just say so and I will abandon the topic.
Thank you.
Good Evening.
Anthony

 

[Jason_mazzy]

[video=youtube;Yn1FiRw2JBo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Yn1FiRw2JBo[/video]

 

[Anthony]

Thanks Jason,
Examples of his J.B.Pines ?
Good Evening.
Anthony

 

[mat]

I don't know who it is, but I'm pretty sure he speaks Japanese and doesn't post here on this board.

 

[Martin Sweeney]

I don't know who it is, but I'm pretty sure he speaks Japanese and doesn't post here on this board.

Kunio Kobayashi gets my vote.

http://www.kunio-kobayashi.com/english/index.html

If you really want to know, I would PM Bill Valavanis and politely ask him his informed opinion. If he would be willing to share, it would be worth more than my vote on the subject.

There may be a Japanese Master who is acknowledged as the greatest by his peers in Japan. If there is, Bill would probably know.

Regards,
Martin

 

[catfish chapstick]

Ryan Neil is the new authority on pines (and probably everything else). Some people are reluctant to believe it... Of course this is only my opinion

 

[Smoke]

Kunio Kobayashi

 

[buddhamonk]

So I thought it might be wise to talk to the greatest expert or experts on J.B.Pines.

Anthony

Do you speak Japanese?

 

[Adair M]

Anthony,

The technique for reducing needle size in JBP is well documented on this site and others. However, these techniques apply to areas of the world where the tree is subject to 4 seasons: Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter. When you apply the technique is as important as What you do. Based on the season.

Problem is, what seasons do you have? Rainy and Dry? Hot and "Not so Hot?" I don't know.

"The greatest JBP expert" doesn't live on your island. He lives in Japan, and Japan has 4 seasons.

You need to find someone who knows how to do it in your climate. If there's no one local, the next best place to look would probably be Hawaii. See if you can find some bonsai people in Hawaii, and maybe they can help you.

 

[Anthony]

Folks,

thank you. I think this was an idiot's request. Apologies.

Adair, thank you for taking the time to respond. As you already know the health part is not a problem as far as the J.B.pine is concerned down here. I don't know how growing in the tropics might shorten the life of a J.B.pine, if it does at all, hopefully, those to follow will take notes.

Thus far the oldest is about 26 years from seed, and the next in line is 19 years, and we were able to figure out all but leaf reduction. Since the pine does not candle down here like it does in Japan. We get buds, very short buds, normally less than 1/4 an inch, and many. They then just produce needles, which do come out shorter than the normal length.It was suggested that the extra buds be removed, and just proceed.

I think the abundance of information, just confused me, and I temporarily lost my focus.

Thus far one pine is showing needles at 1 to 1.5 inches, and holding.

What we have been trying to do is find ways to allow the pine to do what it wants to and work with it. So the bud removal has been slowly attempted, giving the wounds time to dry out in our presently hot and dry climate [ temperature is around 90 deg.F and around 70 deg.F at night.]

Sorry to be pest.
Good Morning
Anthony

* The island of Trinidad has a pronounced Dry Season from around December / January until around May/April or June, when little or no rain will fall.
After that the rains return.
Additionally, I saw on a map of winds of the world, that we get our breezes from Antartica, and Europe which would explain our cooler air from sometime September /October until March.

Though the temperature drops down to minimum low of only 65 deg.F, it does this after sundown and about 3 hours into daylight, and the highs go to 86 / 90 deg.F for just an hour.

We took the time this year to really observe the reaction of the tropical and subtropical tress. They all slowed growth from October/November and then stopped from December until half way into February. The sub-tropicals actually became active before the native trees.

It is presently clocking 90 to 93 deg.F as highs for an hour or so daily, 55 % to 67 % humidity
and then dropping to around 72 to 75 deg.F from evening until morning.

We do not have the response the US can have with humidity or temperatures as heatwaves.
Even with rainfall, humidity seldom rises ove 80%, and the temperature stays at highs for only an hour or so, either 12.00 p.m or as summer comes on 2.00 p.m.
Daylight lengthens to a mere 6.45 p.m and an early 5.30 a.m

It is a pretty mild climate unless you live in deep valley or have the ill luck to reside on the western side of a hill, with no breeze.
1/2 a degree out of the paths of hurricanes and tropical storms.
[ there is a reason the island is named after the Blessed Trinity to quote local folklore - chuckle ]

Once again apologies for my stupidity.

 

[Adair M]

As I suspected, you have no "winter". A time for the tree to become fully dormant. Honestly, the fact the trees live at all are a testament to your skills!

The only advice i can think of that would really work would be to refrigerate the tree for a couple of months. Maybe as little as one month. You don't have to freeze it, but cool it so that it goes completely dormant. While dormant, it won't need light. Just make sure the root ball doesn't dry out.

Now, you may think this is crazy talk, but it's not unlike what we would have to do to grow one of your tropicals. We'd have to set up a green/hot house with lights to grow your tropicals!

Then, when you bring the tree out of refigeration, it would set what we call "Spring candles". Let those extend until they harden off, then cut them off entirely. The second flush of adventitious buds would develop. Let those grow as long as you like, then start putting the tree into refrigeration at night for a month, then leave it in there for a month. Then start over.

(Kinda like what they do to force poinsettias to bloom at Christmas!)

Good luck!

 

[Anthony]

Adair,

I think you might have mis-understood me. J.B.pines, seem to need no winter. They seem to rest by shortening of the days.
The many buds are probably the adaptation, that comes with where they are living.

As I said before, they may end up shorter lived, say every year they lose 4 months out of their life span.
So if their lifespan is say 500 years in Japan, they might only live 200 max years in the tropics.
[ tea roses die after 20 years or so down here, but may live over 100 years in the UK.]

The request over at B.S.G. was how to get the needles shorter, without the convenience of winter.
The answer given on IBC was try to handle the buds, and see how that works.
In about year I can report back to you guys on how the various experiments went.

We use refrigeration for trees that have indicated that they need it. Thus far, Celtis [ not the Chinese type, it has adapted to the tropics ] Gingko, Maple, Apple and Persimmon.
The J.B.P just keeps it's own cycle, save I believe from observing one tree placed in absolute full sun, that it needs a little less light.
Additionally, they seem to prefer porous bonsai pots, with the silica based gravel soil.
So we may shift to more what is known as sub stoneware clay [ matures around 1150 to 1180 deg.c ] with 3 to 5 % porosity. At a lower temperature of say 1050 deg.c the optimum for trees might be found [ more tests - oh yeah ]
Or to cement pots.

Thank you very much for responding and not chewing my head off.
Good Morning.
Anthony.

* What we are trying to determine, is how many trees go dormant through shortening daylight and not necessarily through freezing cold.

And at the same time explore our own natives for use. Takes much time, luv it!

 

[Adair M]

I have no idea if it is cooler temperatures or length of day that causes the JBP to go dormant. For me, where I live it's mid November when the needles harden off. The JBP stay dormant until March, when I start to see Spring candles form. Over the winter, I do see little buds forming where it might back bud on old wood or between old needles. Buds form, but they don't "grow" until March. (That's the timetable for me, where my trees are. Everyone's is different, depending upon their climate and elevation.)

Beginning in March, the Spring candles (terminal tip) swell and lengthen. Needles appear April and May, and grow out to full length by the end of June. On the 4th of July, I decandle. I cut the candles completely off. During the Spring candle growth period, I fertilize heavily, but stop at the end of May. This builds strength.

The tree starts to produce new "summer buds" from the base of the old terminal candles I cut off. They appear in August, and grow until mid November. THere are more numerous summer candles, and the necks are shorter. Since the growing season is shorter, the needles dont have time to get as long before the tree goes dormant again in the winter. I don't fertilize during this period. Once the needles have hardened off in November, they won't get any longer, so I start to fertilize again. I get needles about 1 1/2 inch doing this way, with short internodes. If I wanted shorter needles, I would wait until later in the Summer to decandle.

That's how it's done in North America. You have to see if you can do this in your climate.

By the way, the decandling technique was "discovered" in the 1950's. Prior to that time, the method to shorten needles was to withhold fertilizer and water, and let the tree get very root bound.

 

[Poink88]

Anyone knows a good tutorial for developing JBP? All the tutorials I am reading seems to be geared towards refinement and not for young seedlings or younger stock. I am slowly getting the concept and some refinement steps seems to be counter productive for development..or am I mistaken?

Thank you.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Anyone knows a good tutorial for developing JBP? All the tutorials I am reading seems to be geared towards refinement and not for young seedlings or younger stock. I am slowly getting the concept and some refinement steps seems to be counter productive for development..or am I mistaken?

Thank you.

http://bonsainurseryman.typepad.com/bonsainurseryman/2005/09/raw_material_pi.html

Brent Walston has some great tutorials on starter material black pines. This specific article may not be exactly what you are looking for, but there are many examples with 2-5 year material if you comb through his site.

Thanks,
David D.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

here is a good article that you can scroll to the other various stages of development from:

http://bonsainurseryman.typepad.com/bonsainurseryman/2006/04/pines_where_it_.html

 

[Poink88]

Thanks David! I am looking more for a tutorial like the decandling schedule for refinement BUT geared towards trees in development. When to prune (if ever), etc.

I got a PM lead though about articles on BT so I'll check those tonight.

Thanks for helping again!

 

[milehigh_7]

...I got a PM lead though about articles on BT ...

Well post the link sheesh.

 

[Poink88]

Well post the link sheesh.

Sorry no link...just BT issue number where to find them.

"B.T 12 - growing pines from seed [ Large trees ]
B.T 20 - growing pines from seed [ small trees ]"

 

[milehigh_7]

Sorry no link...just BT issue number where to find them.

"B.T 12 - growing pines from seed [ Large trees ]
B.T 20 - growing pines from seed [ small trees ]"

duhhhh your friend here is a little slow... thanks for the issue #'s