Whos trees?

[Attila Soos]

I would love to see a deciduous tree with a basal flare 1/2-2/3 the width of the canopy...

.


Now you are being very unreasonable and unfair...

As you very well know, the ratio of basal flare vs. width of canopy or height of the tree should not be taken literally. The 1/2 or 2/3 ratio is very high, because it includes the optical illusion of foreshortening. This visual tool is often used in bonsai, to emphasize the attractive features of a tree, by magifying certain features, and diminishing others.

So, although we can see in nature magnificent examples of spreading roots, they will rarely match the ratios that we use in bonsai. If we used the exact ratios occurring in nature, our bonsai would be very inconspicuous. Whether the deadwood, the taper, the foliage pads, etc, there is always a certain degree of exaggeration and abstraction involved, or else, bonsai wouldn't be an art form.

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

Ah well... I literally meant it when I said Daniel's trees mimick the harsh reality of hostile enviornments.... and that because it is outside of the visiual experiance of most people, some have difficulty finding it attractive. I was being kindly taken to task for saying that trees that look like "that", meaning the image presented that did not seem natural to Zach, are not here... so I was quantifying my comment with my literal interpertation of the image. Not attempting to be unreasonable or unfair.... so I apologize for that as well.

All of my comments have been geared towards the one thing I found interesting in the conversation... the possible connection between familiarity and attraction. If one is not familiar with trees possessing massive basal flare and nebari, then others should not be surprised if that someone is not connecting to the image.

I think my point has been overlooked... maybe the idea inside of it did not resonate with anyone else but me.

Anywho... I think I've done enough retracting and apologizing for the day...

Anyone else who'd like to tell me how wrong I am can bite me...lol Except Mark... he can tell me to stuff it in my ear, since I was originally talking to him.

Warmest regards as ever,

Victrinia

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

Dwight is also not allowed to bite me... he'd do it just for fun.

V

 

[Attila Soos]

Anyone else who'd like to tell me how wrong I am can bite me..

That's the spirit, I like it.... (aha aha).


(why deny Mark the pleasure..?)

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

An interesting thought on the idea of what appeals to the viewer on the basis of familiarity.... I love those very artistic representations of trees shown in the begining... but for me, Walter's tree smokes them all, because his is natural, realistic, and imperfect. So familiarity and connection can be strongly related... that was the root of my rabbit trail... nothing more, nothing less.

I am not even looking for anyone to agree with me... feel free not to... I just found it interesting. And more than interesting the expressions of astonishment over a non-conformist opinion on the relative merits of those otherwise perfect seeming trees.

In fact I would be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that Zach likes Walter's tree as well....

V

 

[Klytus]

It can be sometimes difficult to determine which i like best,the Bonsai or the dramatic poses.

Can you name not the style of the tree but the contortion of the owner?

Engine driver regards smoke stack.

 

[plant_dr]

I LOVE Walter's trees! I visit his blog as often as I can. That reminds me, I don't know if I've been over there today yet...Oh yeah I have!

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

I LOVE Walter's trees! I visit his blog as often as I can. That reminds me, I don't know if I've been over there today yet...Oh yeah I have!

Of course you did silly... the sun came up didn't it?

V

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

It can be sometimes difficult to determine which i like best,the Bonsai or the dramatic poses.

Can you name not the style of the tree but the contortion of the owner?

Engine driver regards smoke stack.

Isn't that one called 凝視の人 ???

V

 

[Klytus]

Could be his whistle is acting up again.

 

[rockm]

"Have you been to Utah? Or WA? We don't have trees like that."

Dear one , in my 50 years of living on this planet, I have been to, or lived in, all of the mainland 48 states. Some of my longer residences were in Ariz. and Washington state in the 60's. Massachusetts, Texas, and Virginia after that. I well understand what I see here is only my "normal" and that America is a vast land full of different environments.

I would, however, not buy the argument that trees in Washington state don't develop flat or spreading root flares. This is dependent on many factors of which geography is only one.

While this isn't exactly the same as the Japanese maples pictured, it does show that even native trees can develop spreading nebari--even in the PNW
http://www.guidesign.com/olympic/rfsitka.htm

 

[Walter Pall]

The attached Japanese maple has similar nebari. I do not think that it is very natural. But it certainly impresses me very much. I don't mind having such trees.

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

"Have you been to Utah? Or WA? We don't have trees like that."

Dear one , in my 50 years of living on this planet, I have been to, or lived in, all of the lower 48 states. Some of my longer residences were in Ariz. and Washington state in the 60's. Massachusetts, Texas, and Virginia after that. I well understand what I see here is only my "normal" and that America is a vast land full of different environments.

I would, however, not buy the argument that trees in Washington state don't develop flat or spreading root flares. This is dependent on many factors of which geography is only one.

While this isn't exactly the same as the Japanese maples pictured, it does show that even native trees can develop spreading nebari--even in the PNW
http://www.guidesign.com/olympic/rfsitka.htm

I was commenting on deciduous trees... Being a dominantly coniferous forest area, you'll know our common deciduous trees would be limited to things like alder and big leaf maple and madrone for the most part... At least for anything that gets to a large size....

Those can and do get basal flare... but not to great extent. Come on... you lived here... back when there were more trees...lol think about it.

You should move back... the state would be much improved. And we've gotten civilized since the 60s...lol

V

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

The attached Japanese maple has similar nebari. I do not think that it is very natural. But it certainly impresses me very much. I don't mind having such trees.

Agreed.... it is quite beautiful as well... Do you have any photos of it out of leaf?

Kindest regards,

Victrinia

 

[Walter Pall]

Victrinia,

not yet, as it is still sitting in a friend's garden.

 

[rockm]

I lived in eastern Washington out near the Hanford reactor--Yeah, I know, that explains a lot It was some time ago, but I remember quite a few deciduous trees, cottonwood in particular. Eastern Washington ain't no coniferous rain forest...It's mostly a dusty high desert.

Although I was pretty young, I distinctly remember more deciduous trees than conifers there. Trees much like these:

http://artistictreeworks.com/portfolio/main.php?g2_itemId=1344&g2_page=1

Back then there were radioactive alligators in the Columbia River..., but that's another story that's probably classified...

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

Victrinia,

not yet, as it is still sitting in a friend's garden.

Is there a fence? I'll bring the ski masks... you bring the rope... we'll go get it.

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

I lived in eastern Washington out near the Hanford reactor--Yeah, I know, that explains a lot It was some time ago, but I remember quite a few deciduous trees, cottonwood in particular. Eastern Washington ain't no coniferous rain forest...It's mostly a dusty high desert.

Although I was pretty young, I distinctly remember more deciduous trees than conifers there. Trees much like these:

http://artistictreeworks.com/portfolio/main.php?g2_itemId=1344&g2_page=1

Back then there were radioactive alligators in the Columbia River..., but that's another story that's probably classified...

Hahahhahahha.... oh yah... you are right... it does explain a lot.

And yes... in eastern WA there are way more deciduous trees than conifers... but we sort of pretend that that is another state.

I also think all cottonwoods should be outlawed as nuisance trees...

If you look at the registry of giant trees... Guess what... the only tree with a photo is a Cottonwood...lol massive as she is... she heads straight into the ground. I found that one a little odd because I EXPECTED to see some basal flare... but no.

http://www.americanforests.org/resources/bigtrees/register.php?details=3796

V

 

[Bill S]

I'll second the motion on those cotton woods, they are killin me with the June snow storms.

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

Btw... I have no idea what we are contrasting anymore... I think you and I actually agree on the same thing. There IS tapered basal flare... my only contention was that there were not trees similar to the image in the original post.... so though I adore having these amusing exchanges with you, and will happily mine the net for photos to support whatever discussion we are having, I just want to know what we are examining here. Is it the strict exsistance of basal flare and nebari? Well of course there is... I never said there wasn't... Do we have pancake basal flare of the type in that first photo.... no.

But I'll beg the question... does anyone?

Oh yah... Attila explained that part... it's an artistic perspective distortion based on what people find visually pleasing.

Which is what I think got the whole thing going... Zach didn't find it visually appealing... and actually said so.

His objection was based in an assessment of the art presented... and my comment was an exploration of the possible impact that visual experiance can have in making that assessment.

The only thing I was pointing out by dragging Walter's trees into it... is that to reject pancake nebari, does not consign one to a stick in a pot... or an unworthy tree.


(Oh my spidy-sense tells me I'm going to get yelled at now!)

Sincere affection to all,

Victrinia