Why are bonsai so expensive?

[Dav4]

I had seen that video posted...but hadn't the time to view it until now. I figured...it has to be worth my time. Adair shared it. (Seen it passed along on FB.) Anyways...anyone notice she didn't use gloves when applying sphagnum moss? I know ones here stress to do so.

I never wear gloves when using long fibered sphagnum moss, and I use a lot with my combined hobbies of bonsai and keeping carnivorous plants. The bigger health related issue is the potential for inhaling fungal spores, and even that is not a big issue if you're working in a well ventilated area... like outside.

 

[atlarsenal]

Mmmmm... extra fungal spores please!

 

[amatbrewer]

That'd be my attitude. Mainly as a defensive thing, because nobody wants to touch them right now. But in 20 or 30 years, oh boy! I'll have to put up an electric fence for at least one out of the 142 I own. At least, that's my goal. Small steps..

I on the other hand have the luxury of knowing that I am a hack utterly devoid of any talent, and regardless of how much time/effort I put in none of my trees will ever be worth a damn thing to anyone but myself (a couple may have sentimental value to my family). So I can take pleasure in the few victories I achieve, and not stress over anything like value or ROI. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for the sake of the art of bonsai because if it were left to people like me the art would surely die) not everyone is in this position.
This reminds me of when I drove limousines for 'beer money'. It was a really fun job to do as I did not care about the amount of money I made. But I felt sorry for the folks who did it for a living and had to stress over how much (or more often how little) $ they made.

BTW If it is not obvious, I greatly appreciate and admire the dedicated and talented folks who continue to preserve and advance the art form. We are all in your debt.

 

[rockm]

I will never really understand the "it's free" or the "if you paid over $100 (insert amount) then it's inauthentic" There is a kind of reverse tyranny going on there.

Anyone who's been at this for more than 10 years or so can make a pretty decent tree from scratch. Most Anyone who's been at this for more than 10 years doesn't really do that anymore though. They've moved on to more advanced trees and stock. They tend to understand that really GREAT trees CAN'T be developed from scratch nursery stock or quick (less than a decade) ground growing. To get to where most advanced people want to be requires an investment of some sort--time searching for collectible trees, paying for more advanced stock or in specialized instruction.

As for wearing gloves with sphagnum moss, it's not really necessary--until it is. The spores can cause two kinds of infection--respiratory (which killed Brian Batchelder) or skin infection--which is mainly hard lumps in the skin...All you need is an open wound and wringing out a heap of wet sphagnum moss to get the skin type. I think the respiratory infection might be harder to get and requires repeated inhalation of the dust over time. That's apparently how Batchelder got it...

 

[Vance Wood]

I watched that video several days ago. What I find so interesting is when she says she starts the material to pass it on to the next generation to continue it on. That's truly a passion to prepare something today to leave it for the next generation.

It should be a passion to get the next generation prepared to have it passed on to them. I find that the most difficult.

 

[Vance Wood]

I will never really understand the "it's free" or the "if you paid over $100 (insert amount) then it's inauthentic" There is a kind of reverse tyranny going on there.

Anyone who's been at this for more than 10 years or so can make a pretty decent tree from scratch. Most Anyone who's been at this for more than 10 years doesn't really do that anymore though. They've moved on to more advanced trees and stock. They tend to understand that really GREAT trees CAN'T be developed from scratch nursery stock or quick (less than a decade) ground growing. To get to where most advanced people want to be requires an investment of some sort--time searching for collectible trees, paying for more advanced stock or in specialized instruction.

As for wearing gloves with sphagnum moss, it's not really necessary--until it is. The spores can cause two kinds of infection--respiratory (which killed Brian Batchelder) or skin infection--which is mainly hard lumps in the skin...All you need is an open wound and wringing out a heap of wet sphagnum moss to get the skin type. I think the respiratory infection might be harder to get and requires repeated inhalation of the dust over time. That's apparently how Batchelder got it...

Tyranny takes many shapes, sadly some of them are our own. Thinking ourselves to be above such things we take on ourselves the same kind of tyranny we just pilloried using different parameters unique to ourselves and a few others with the same circumstances. It is said: "They tend to understand that really GREAT trees CAN'T be developed from scratch nursery stock". This may or may not be true. I have seen the total lack of talent and an abundance of money take a first rate Yamadori, or pre-bonsai and turn it into a real crapsai. I have had to deal with this state of mind for many years where everyone tells me I am wasting my time with nursery stock. It was not too long ago that this was the predominant opinion from some of the people on this forum. My problem is: I cannot afford expensive pre-bonsai and I do not have access to first rate Yamadori, so I have to do my own and if you don't like it you can kiss your own ass, I sure wont, but I wont kick it but you choose differently.

 

[rockm]

Tyranny takes many shapes, sadly some of them are our own. Thinking ourselves to be above such things we take on ourselves the same kind of tyranny we just pilloried using different parameters unique to ourselves and a few others with the same circumstances. It is said: "They tend to understand that really GREAT trees CAN'T be developed from scratch nursery stock". This may or may not be true. I have seen the total lack of talent and an abundance of money take a first rate Yamadori, or pre-bonsai and turn it into a real crapsai. I have had to deal with this state of mind for many years where everyone tells me I am wasting my time with nursery stock. It was not too long ago that this was the predominant opinion from some of the people on this forum. My problem is: I cannot afford expensive pre-bonsai and I do not have access to first rate Yamadori, so I have to do my own and if you don't like it you can kiss your own ass, I sure wont, but I wont kick it but you choose differently.

Well,yeah Vance there is always the idiot factor that runs from beginners to "experts"

I am talking about a general undercurrent of some who criticize people who spend more than $100 on a tree or buy a tree that is "finished." There has been a deep streak of "Do It Yourself or you're a poseur" in American bonsai. It's held us back for years, IMO. It's part of the American spirit to do it from scratch. While that is incredibly admirable. It also has a downside. For bonsai, it's been somewhat of a short circuit. That's changing.

And FWIW, you DO have access to first rate yamadori and it can cost as little at $85 or less. I got a very nice ponderosa from Andy Smith at Golden Arrow for something like $40, $60 or so with shipping.--have you seen some of the material Andy sells? or over at Cho bonsai? or Zach at Bonsai-South?. ALL of that is readily available for less than a lot of lesser stock I've seen at local shows. This has developed over the last few years. Ten years ago, I could count the number of good yamadori sources online on one hand. There are literally more than I can count these days, most have good to excellent stock. Some are crap.

As for nursery stock, yes, it can become great bonsai. I have always been an admirer of what you do with mugo pine. I have had a nursery mugo. a nice one. I killed it.

 

[Lazylightningny]

I'm one of those in the "thrifty" category. I just don't have the disposable income to purchase expensive material. However, Adair's point is well taken. Masterpieces are expensive because of the amount of time spent in developing these trees. For those that can afford them, I salute you. You are advancing the American art. I'm just not one of them.

The travesty, in my opinion, are those hacks who take a piece of nursery stock for $24, prune and bare root it, pot it up, and sell it for $500 on ebay.

 

[Adair M]

There’s nothing wrong with starting with nursery stock. I know of several artists who buy starters in liners, wire them, stick them in the ground, work on them periodically, then pull them out of the ground a decade later, refine them, then sell them for big bucks at shows.

Are they worth the price they ask? Some are, some aren’t. The ones that sell, are.

Looking at them, it’s easy to see how they are created. All it takes is doing it, and time.

Over on Facebook, on the “Bonsai Appraisals” group, someone posted a Jim Gremel Shinpaku shohin, and asked for guesses as to the price. No one guessed what Jim was asking, which was $14,500. There were several guesses in the $1,200 to $1,800 range.

Now, why did Jim set such a high price? Could it be he really didn’t want to sell it? Could such a high price make his other trees appear to be reasonable, and they would sell at high prices ( just less than the $14K one)? Did he have many more years invested in it than his others?

We’ll never know, I don’t think. But I do know he has invested many years in growing the material he uses to make bonsai. And I have also seen the pile of dead trees that didn’t survive the “collecting” phase when the trees were dug up to be potted. The “cost” of those trees factors in to the “ price” of the survivors.

 

[W3rk]

Anthony, go back and re-read this thread. Compare your comments to all the others.

Now... can you see why so many people consider you to be a troll??? Your wealth envy is obvious. And unattractive. The irony is, any of us can create “bonsai wealth” by carefully tending our trees over the long term.

And while the title of the video says “expensive”, which implies value in terms of money, the theme of the video speaks to the time and effort, manhours, that go into the creation and maintenance of bonsai over years and decades. Consistently applied manhours. Because as we all know neglecting a bonsai for even a short period can ruin or even kill it.

If you think he's a troll, you know the best "response" is to ignore and move on, right?

 

[Wilson]

There’s nothing wrong with starting with nursery stock. I know of several artists who buy starters in liners, wire them, stick them in the ground, work on them periodically, then pull them out of the ground a decade later, refine them, then sell them for big bucks at shows.

Are they worth the price they ask? Some are, some aren’t. The ones that sell, are.

Looking at them, it’s easy to see how they are created. All it takes is doing it, and time.

Over on Facebook, on the “Bonsai Appraisals” group, someone posted a Jim Gremel Shinpaku shohin, and asked for guesses as to the price. No one guessed what Jim was asking, which was $14,500. There were several guesses in the $1,200 to $1,800 range.

Now, why did Jim set such a high price? Could it be he really didn’t want to sell it? Could such a high price make his other trees appear to be reasonable, and they would sell at high prices ( just less than the $14K one)? Did he have many more years invested in it than his others?

We’ll never know, I don’t think. But I do know he has invested many years in growing the material he uses to make bonsai. And I have also seen the pile of dead trees that didn’t survive the “collecting” phase when the trees were dug up to be potted. The “cost” of those trees factors in to the “ price” of the survivors.

Well said, and man would I love to get one of Jim's cedars!

 

[Anthony]

@W3rk ,

please dpn't take Sifu [ Adair ] too seriously. he teaches me and I ask
lots of questions. At times drive him nuts [for years.]
Thus far he has called me - confused - old fashioned in technique and
I see troll with ????? as well [ that sentance was a bit confusing ]

But because of him, there are 15 inch J.B.pines with 1, 2 and 3 inch needles.
and I am happy to say - 30 year old branches that are back budding easily,
so no need to learn grafting techniques.

Thank you Sifu !!!

Now we can move onto from Formal or leaning styles in J,B.pines
to informal and other styles.
Yes, and also roots rising naturally in a radial fashion, just not
like the spokes of a wheel.

So keep coming at me Sifu, I am learning.
Good Day
Anthony

* Also our hardwood cuttings rooting average for J.B.pines is now
3 out 5.
From our own stock.
Thanks Shibui !!!

 

[Anthony]

Never understood the use of sphagnum moss in humid
climates when transplanting.
The present practice of two weeks in bright light works very well and
we have low humidity when trasplanting.

Or slamming trees into soil.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Paulpash]

There is so much information about how to successfully ground grow material these days from places like this forum to Brent at evergreengardens that growing your own is a very economical route financially if not in terms of time/space.

It's kind of like an investment fund that will bring dividends in the future hopefully when you have the skills to do it justice.

The Acer air layering thread is another great example of people being creative with propagation and by doing so they also invest in themselves:

Confidence & knowledge to produce their own raw material. It saves money. Skills develop faster as you now have multiple pieces of stock to practice wiring, root work, branch development etc on. You are more likely to experiment with advanced or 'alternative' techniques safe in the knowledge that you're working on a 'freebie' and there's more to come if this one doesn't work out. The learning curve is proportional to your day to day work with trees, all things being equal (like talent and common sense!) Being able to develop your own stock, therefore, can accelerate your own development as well as your trees.

I love developing my own bonsai from scratch - not because it's the 'American' or 'British' way or I'm just tighter than a duck's arse but because it's friggin fun and a challenge and ultimately more satisfying - every cock up or positive feature is my own. I am not constricted by another's vision.

Anyway - end of passionate diatribe about developing your own stuff - I'm off to check my Arakawa air layer in the sun and make a brew

 

[Adair M]

There is so much information about how to successfully ground grow material these days from places like this forum to Brent at evergreengardens that growing your own is a very economical route financially if not in terms of time/space.

It's kind of like an investment fund that will bring dividends in the future hopefully when you have the skills to do it justice.

The Acer air layering thread is another great example of people being creative with propagation and by doing so they also invest in themselves:

Confidence & knowledge to produce their own raw material. It saves money. Skills develop faster as you now have multiple pieces of stock to practice wiring, root work, branch development etc on. You are more likely to experiment with advanced or 'alternative' techniques safe in the knowledge that you're working on a 'freebie' and there's more to come if this one doesn't work out. The learning curve is proportional to your day to day work with trees, all things being equal (like talent and common sense!) Being able to develop your own stock, therefore, can accelerate your own development as well as your trees.

I love developing my own bonsai from scratch - not because it's the 'American' or 'British' way or I'm just tighter than a duck's arse but because it's friggin fun and a challenge and ultimately more satisfying - every cock up or positive feature is my own. I am not constricted by another's vision.

Anyway - end of passionate diatribe about developing your own stuff - I'm off to check my Arakawa air layer in the sun and make a brew

This thread isn’t about “buying vs grow your own”, it’s about recognizing the accumulated time and continuous effort it takes to keep a bonsai alive and thriving for an extended period of time.

 

[Paulpash]

This thread isn’t about “buying vs grow your own”, it’s about recognizing the accumulated time and continuous effort it takes to keep a bonsai alive and thriving for an extended period of time.

And growing your own isn't about that? I have a Cotoneaster that I dug out as a 2 leaf seedling when I first moved in to my property as a 21 year old complete bonsai noobie. I'll be fifty one in October. It's not a great tree but I keep it around exactly BECAUSE I recognize that exact effort and the lessons it taught me.

It's like @Brian Van Fleet 's ginkgo he grew from seed. It is special to him because it symbolizes perseverance and effort - investment of time nurturing something from scratch. My ground grown ginkgo still has development time ahead of it and it has easily been in the ground 20 years. I find it rich that someone who just works on refinement and more instant gratification can lecture another experienced grower on patience, effort and perseverance - we're just 2 sides of the same coin.

 

[Adair M]

And growing your own isn't about that? I have a Cotoneaster that I dug out as a 2 leaf seedling when I first moved in to my property as a 21 year old complete bonsai noobie. I'll be fifty one in October. It's not a great tree but I keep it around exactly BECAUSE I recognize that exact effort and the lessons it taught me.

It's like @Brian Van Fleet 's ginkgo he grew from seed. It is special to him because it symbolizes perseverance and effort - investment of time nurturing something from scratch. My ground grown ginkgo still has development time ahead of it and it has easily been in the ground 20 years. I find it rich that someone who just works on refinement and more instant gratification can lecture another experienced grower on patience, effort and perseverance - we're just 2 sides of the same coin.

No, I fully appreciate the time and effort it takes to grow something from scratch. That’s why they’re expensive! I’ve been messin’ with little trees for about 50 years. Unfortunately, my ex-wife killed the ones I had from my early days. It’s only been in the last 10 years that I’ve been able to work with more refined trees.

I’ve heard the doctor say to me twice, “Adair, you have cancer”. Twice, I’ve been able to beat it with surgery. Who knows what’s in store next?

So, I figure that if I will ever have a chance to work with refined trees, it has to be NOW.

 

[ConorDash]

Watched last night and thought to post it but then though nah, no one will be interested!

 

[ConorDash]

Speaking amongst experienced people, I’m a naive young bonsaist..
I had a neighbours parent wisteria that reaches over my fence, 25-30+ years old. Blooms each year (they killed it this year, didn’t want it anymore). I took some seeds and they’ve been growing for 2 years now. I don’t have any designs on them as Bonsai because I know growing from seed, to become Bonsai is crazy.. but I enjoy the journey and experience. I’ll keep them alive and try to guide them as long as I can possibly.
You guys have been doing this for a few decades.. I hope in a few decades I can look at a few of these wisteria, potted, blooming (Chinese, 12-15+ years for bloom) and WHATEVER it looks like, I know I’ll love it.

My take from this is, enjoy the journey more than the end result.

Pic of 4/6 of the wisteria.

 

[Paulpash]

Speaking amongst experienced people, I’m a naive young bonsaist..
I had a neighbours parent wisteria that reaches over my fence, 25-30+ years old. Blooms each year (they killed it this year, didn’t want it anymore). I took some seeds and they’ve been growing for 2 years now. I don’t have any designs on them as Bonsai because I know growing from seed, to become Bonsai is crazy.. but I enjoy the journey and experience. I’ll keep them alive and try to guide them as long as I can possibly.
You guys have been doing this for a few decades.. I hope in a few decades I can look at a few of these wisteria, potted, blooming (Chinese, 12-15+ years for bloom) and WHATEVER it looks like, I know I’ll love it.

My take from this is, enjoy the journey more than the end result.

Pic of 4/6 of the wisteria.
View attachment 250330

Luckily, I've told my neighbours that if they want any big plants digging up to give me a shout beforehand - it might just save them a ton of work. I've now got a Japanese wisteria to go with my Chinese one I'm just letting it grow til it blooms again.