Why are Japanese trees/artists consistently cited as best in the world?

[electraus]

This is as much a question as it is a discussion prompt. I just constantly hear American bonsai greats like Ryan Neil, Bjorn Bjorholm, etc. say that the best trees and bonsai masters are all in Japan, and that makes me think a little. It may be that I'm only two and a half years into this and still can't distinguish a fantastic tree from a grand masterpiece, but I just feel that if these other very accomplished and skilled artists from other parts of the world were all apprentices of the Japanese masters, what makes them lesser than a Japanese artist who did their apprenticeship with the same master? What makes the Japanese artists' trees so much more worthy of praise?

I guess I understand the idea that the Japanese masters, themselves, may create better pieces by the simple virtue of the fact that they're older and have much more experience. David DeGroot makes the argument that bonsai is a much more technical art than it is a creative one, and I do agree with him, so I guess that part clicks for me. But then I see Bjorn working on a breathtakingly magnificent Rocky Mountain Juniper (you know the one I'm talking about), and I just think "masterpiece." Why aren't the bonsai heavyweights outside of Japan referred to as 'masters?' Is it that these artists from other parts of the world are following the traditional East Asian custom of showing deference to elders and paying reverence to the place where the art form was made into what it is today or are Japanese trees/artists actually way better quality and I'm just too much of an uncultured novice to know what a true masterpiece is?

 

[Potawatomi13]

Perhaps because these not arrogant enough to consider selves "artists". Japan, china, Korea all have masters following many past masters and none consider selves "artists". Except for rare arrogant individuals all have learned humility, Rest of world area has relative newcomers as shown by present website with many striving to be "artists" without true humility. Mastery of craft must include mastery of self and death self important arrogance. "Westerners" have problems subsuming self.

 

[rockm]

You've skipped ahead and are reading things into this that aren't there. The students of "Masters" in Japan aren't "greater" than the students of the same master here in the U.S. They're all students. Some go on to make bonsai a profession. Others don't.

Another thing is that the "masters' in Japan run bonsai businesses in a market that understands bonsai. The bonsai biz in Japan is probably not what you imagine. There aren't any Mr. Miyagi types sitting around offering sage advice. The apprenticeships at bonsai nurseries can be brutal with demanding physical and mental stress. The competition among bonsai professionals in Japan is more business than Zen. Bonsai has no formal process (or iemoto system) to become a master. No belt grading, etc. That is by intent. However, the environment in Japan for bonsai is vastly different than here in the U.S. That competitive environment in a market that understands bonsai can hone bonsai skills and understanding. Your technical know how can be a deciding factor in selling or exhibiting a tree. Precision counts. In the U.S. such things aren't noticed much--not saying that American artists are subpar, but their technical work isn't scrutinized every day by someone who is better at it than they are.

FWIW, being impressed with the results on a 1,000 year old collected juniper is easy. More than half the work on the tree was done by nature. Now turning a mediocre tree into a masterpiece takes technical know how-a different skill set than what a spectacular collected tree requires.

Kimura turns tree upside down:

A Mind Bending Transformation | Bonsai Bark

Nihon de Hajimete, Part 8: Kimura’s Garden

In today’s episode, we visit the garden of legendary artist Masahiko Kimura. It was interesting seeing the bonsai I had seen and admired(as have all of you) in magazines and books, through th…

japanesebonsaipots.net

This is an article worth reading for perspective on what bonsai is and how it works in Japan.

THE MEANING OF BONSAI: TRADITION AND THE JAPANESE ESTHETIC - Discuss Japan

The Ōmiya Bonsai Art Museum, Saitama, opened on March 28 in Saitama City, not far from Tokyo. It is the first publicly run institution in Japan dedicated to the art of bonsai. The museum is located in an exclusive residential area known as the Ōmiya Bonsai Village. The Bonsai Village developed...

www.japanpolicyforum.jp

 

[electraus]

You've skipped ahead and are reading things into this that aren't there. The students of "Masters" in Japan aren't "greater" than the students of the same master here in the U.S. They're all students. Some go on to make bonsai a profession. Others don't.

Another thing is that the "masters' in Japan run bonsai businesses in a market that understands bonsai. The bonsai biz in Japan is probably not what you imagine. There aren't any Mr. Miyagi types sitting around offering sage advice. The apprenticeships at bonsai nurseries can be brutal with demanding physical and mental stress. The competition among bonsai professionals in Japan is more business than Zen. Bonsai has no formal process (or iemoto system) to become a master. No belt grading, etc. That is by intent. However, the environment in Japan for bonsai is vastly different than here in the U.S. That competitive environment in a market that understands bonsai can hone bonsai skills and understanding. Your technical know how can be a deciding factor in selling or exhibiting a tree. Precision counts. In the U.S. such things aren't noticed much--not saying that American artists are subpar, but their technical work isn't scrutinized every day by someone who is better at it than they are.

FWIW, being impressed with the results on a 1,000 year old collected juniper is easy. More than half the work on the tree was done by nature. Now turning a mediocre tree into a masterpiece takes technical know how-a different skill set than what a spectacular collected tree requires.

Kimura turns tree upside down:

A Mind Bending Transformation | Bonsai Bark

Nihon de Hajimete, Part 8: Kimura’s Garden

In today’s episode, we visit the garden of legendary artist Masahiko Kimura. It was interesting seeing the bonsai I had seen and admired(as have all of you) in magazines and books, through th…

japanesebonsaipots.net

This is an article worth reading for perspective on what bonsai is and how it works in Japan.

THE MEANING OF BONSAI: TRADITION AND THE JAPANESE ESTHETIC - Discuss Japan

The Ōmiya Bonsai Art Museum, Saitama, opened on March 28 in Saitama City, not far from Tokyo. It is the first publicly run institution in Japan dedicated to the art of bonsai. The museum is located in an exclusive residential area known as the Ōmiya Bonsai Village. The Bonsai Village developed...

www.japanpolicyforum.jp

I see. Interesting.
Yeah, I saw that shimpaku transformation in the Masters Series book on junipers and was completely dumbfounded. Thanks for weighing in!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Time. Those trees often represent generations of training and care. Japan sets the standard for bonsai because It’s been done there so long.

 

[bbk]

FWIW, being impressed with the results on a 1,000 year old collected juniper is easy. More than half the work on the tree was done by nature. Now turning a mediocre tree into a masterpiece takes technical know how-a different skill set than what a spectacular collected tree requires.

so that is my problem… just give me a 1000 year old collected tree and I am set!!
Ok I know you have carefully worded that statement to say “being impressed by” not “working on”.

But is there a wider point? Putting aside that for the vast majority of people, IMHO enjoyment* should be their first priority when doing bonsai. Not everyone has access to high quality starting materials to make life quicker and easier. So therefore, is the test of ones skill the relative improvement of a tree compared with when you started working on it, no matter how poor it might be relative to a tree next to it?

I realise that is not a straightforward question, because part of the skill is knowing which tree to start with.

* whatever that means for the person - Eg growing a tree from seed, having the best looking God damn tree around. Whatever!

 

[rockm]

so that is my problem… just give me a 1000 year old collected tree and I am set!!
Ok I know you have carefully worded that statement to say “being impressed by” not “working on”.

But is there a wider point? Putting aside that for the vast majority of people, IMHO enjoyment* should be their first priority when doing bonsai. Not everyone has access to high quality starting materials to make life quicker and easier. So therefore, is the test of ones skill the relative improvement of a tree compared with when you started working on it, no matter how poor it might be relative to a tree next to it?

I realise that is not a straightforward question, because part of the skill is knowing which tree to start with.

* whatever that means for the person - Eg growing a tree from seed, having the best looking God damn tree around. Whatever!

You seem to think that working on higher quality starting materials "make life easier and quicker." Not true, those kinds of trees require an entirely different set of skills to work on. Skills that can't be developed using younger material. This works in the reverse also--but the experienced person working on the advanced tree will have more understanding they can apply to younger material.

If you're just starting out, you may think you're set with a 1,000 year old tree, but you're not. That tree requires experience to master.

Gaining and applying that experience is one of the many charms of bonsai. There are no priorities in enjoying bonsai. It is not the "final" tree (although that goal is enjoyable when it happens -- "finished" bonsai don't stay that way for long). It is not the "journey," although gaining experience working with a number of trees, as well as people over the years, is quite enjoyable. It is not mastering the skills, although being competent to work on everything from seedlings to 1,000 year old trees is satisfying. It is ALL of those things that are experienced together or separately as you get older, much like having children, seeing them grow, learn and live over time. Things change, sometimes slowly, sometimes rapidly.

 

[bbk]

You seem to think that working on higher quality starting materials "make life easier and quicker." Not true, those kinds of trees require an entirely different set of skills to work on. Skills that can't be developed using younger material. This works in the reverse also--but the experienced person working on the advanced tree will have more understanding they can apply to younger material.

That is really my question, having extrapolated your point about 1,000 year old trees.

Maybe I should have asked a slightly different question. I am trying to explore the difference in skill sets.

Your earlier point was that a 1,000 year old collected tree partly looks great because it is a 1,000 year old tree. So whilst you undoubtedly need skills to work on that, my question is, what is the relative improvement you have imparted?

Obviously compare that to someone who has a veritable stick in the ground, yes it is a different skill set. But again (at a point in time) when comparing what it started with to where it is, how much improvement has been imparted.

Obviously this is like comparing Andy Warhol to Leonardo da Vinci. Who is better? Different techniques. Both great artists, but you are not comparing apples with apples.

This is a philosophical question.

 

[Adamski77]

I think it's three things: time, patience and experience... time - older, more mature trees being worked for several lifetimes; patience - it's naturally built into Asian culture across many nations... they strongly believe you don't have to be the one that 'finishes' the job... passing it onto your children is totally ok; and experience in broad sense - this art existed and was practiced way before many countries were even formed... so you talking here about institutional knowledge that supports it.

 

[yenling83]

rtist who did their apprenticeship with the same master? What makes the Japanese artists' trees so much more worthy of praise?

Some Great Questions Electraus
What makes the Japanese artists' trees so much more worthy of praise?
Japan is generations ahead of the US, many Bonsai nurseries and professionals have been building on the technique, craft, developing trees and overall standards for generations. Their standards are set very high, there's more money involved in purchasing trees and getting trees into high level Bonsai exhibitions. Japan has also had the time and knowledge to select for small leaf size, develop branches in proportion to the trunk and has higher quality pots and stands.

Yamadori or Collected conifers in the United States may be some of the best Bonsai material in the world. IMO, our best collected conifer trunks could be considered better than the best in Japan. However, their yamadori have been Bonsai for many more years on average compared to ours which is a big advantage. In terms of Deciduous and Broadleaf evergreen, Japan is many decades out in front of us as the best specimens are usually grown from seed, cutting or airlayer and take a min of 20-60 years depending on size of the final tree.

Why aren't the bonsai heavyweights outside of Japan referred to as 'masters?'
I've never liked the term "Bonsai Master." I think of Jedi Master, Dungeon Master, DoJo Master and other Corny mystical things with that term. Can you truly master anything? Does Master mean to know everything possible about the subject as in there's nothing you don't know?

I think a better term is Bonsai Professional. There are many high level Bonsai Professionals in the United States and maybe a couple Westerners practicing Bonsai professionally in Japan who could rival many Japanese professionals in Japan based on technical skill(Peter Tea, Ryan N, Michael H, Tyler S, Bjorn, etc.). However, there are many more Bonsai professionals in Japan compared to the US. It's hard to compare each Bonsai professional overall and better suited to compare each pro on technical merit in a specific category/subject. For example-maybe Ryan N is a 10/10 on Developing RMJs, but a 6/10 on most Deciduous, maybe Peter Tea is a 10/10 on scion grafting, but a 5/10 on Display(just examples not where I actually think they rank).

 

[Emanon]

I guess I understand the idea that the Japanese masters, themselves, may create better pieces by the simple virtue of the fact that they're older and have much more experience.

Yeah, but that only explains so much -- the Chinese have been cultivating trees in pots for at least at long as (longer than actually) the Japanese. Where are all the Chinese Kimuras or Chinese Ryan Neils of the world? What specific cultural attributes in China explains this? I'm sure that there are very beautiful bonsai trees in China but the artists are not really world famous like the Japanese.

 

[rockm]

That is really my question, having extrapolated your point about 1,000 year old trees.

Maybe I should have asked a slightly different question. I am trying to explore the difference in skill sets.

Your earlier point was that a 1,000 year old collected tree partly looks great because it is a 1,000 year old tree. So whilst you undoubtedly need skills to work on that, my question is, what is the relative improvement you have imparted?

Obviously compare that to someone who has a veritable stick in the ground, yes it is a different skill set. But again (at a point in time) when comparing what it started with to where it is, how much improvement has been imparted.

Obviously this is like comparing Andy Warhol to Leonardo da Vinci. Who is better? Different techniques. Both great artists, but you are not comparing apples with apples.

This is a philosophical question.

"Your earlier point was that a 1,000 year old collected tree partly looks great because it is a 1,000 year old tree. So whilst you undoubtedly need skills to work on that, my question is, what is the relative improvement you have imparted?"

This is a common misconception for those who haven't worked on older collected trees. The assumption is that those kinds of trees can come out of the ground as established "bonsai." That's not how it works for the vast majority of collected trees. It's not really a matter of making relative changes. Depending on the species, development can mean re-growing an entire apex, or branching that has to match the tree below it in character--that takes a very long time. For conifers, it can mean pushing new growth closer to the trunk, or grafting on entire branches and new buds. All that can't be done without a decent root mass--which doesn't exist in most cases since collected trees have had most of their roots removed to get them out of the ground. Doing that can take a while too and work elsewhere on the tree can't be done without it.

Yes, all of that can be true with younger trees, but it generally doesn't take as long because younger trees are more vigorous. That vigor allows more forgiveness for mistakes, drastic treatment, etc.

Along with all of that, older trees have extreme character developed over centuries. Understanding how to use that and not screw it up is a challenge as well. You can't really impose "your design" on such trees. They have their own ideas.

 

[rockm]

FWIW--This tree is typical of old deciduous collected stock. It's a live oak that was pulled from the Texas chaparral near Austin 30 years ago. It's main trunk was originally 20 feet tall. It was about 260 years old then. I've developed it since its collection. It's taken quite a few years to develop the top into it's current form, requiring several subsequent grow out/reduction intervals to build the apex. It's only now beginning to match the lower trunk...

 

[Gabler]

Yeah, but that only explains so much -- the Chinese have been cultivating trees in pots for at least at long as (longer than actually) the Japanese. Where are all the Chinese Kimuras or Chinese Ryan Neils of the world? What specific cultural attributes in China explains this? I'm sure that there are very beautiful bonsai trees in China but the artists are not really world famous like the Japanese.

My understanding, which should be taken with a grain of salt, is that post-WWII Japan has experienced more cultural exchange with the west than China has. Their culture is already one that values precision and perfection, and when you combine that with Western capitalism, the competition toward perfection is amplified to the utmost degree. Chinese penjing, in my impression, has not evolved in the same manner as Japanese bonsai, and additionally, we see much less of it here outside of China.

To clarify, that’s not a criticism of the style of Chinese trees. It’s just a comment contrasting the goals of Japanese growers with the goals of Chinese growers.

 

[rockm]

The Japanese have made bonsai there own, as they have many other things imported from China. The Japanese applied their esthetics to bonsai once it was brought over from China. Like many other things they initially imported (technology in particular), they used the foreign foundation and advanced and informed it using their own techniques and point of view.

With the opening of Japan to the West in the late 1800's and into the first half of the 20th century, they infused their own traditional art, for instance, with influences from the West. Japanese woodblock artists, for example mingled with the French Impressionist artists in Paris. The woodblocks produced in the "Shin Hanga" or "new print" era have a more Western-oriented technique, but retain traditional Japanese themes. Technology such as the transistor, photography, and microchips were all initially developed outside of Japan, but the Japanese improved and honed all of those things for export. Think back to inexpensive transistor radios, Sony walkmans, video recorders, HD televisions, and computer technology. Back in the early 1970's, my dad worked for a large U.S. electronics supplier. He was in charge of taking new tech to show off at trade shows. He always complained about the Japanese who flocked to his company's booth asking for tech drawings of the products and taking extensive pictures with their Nikons...

Japanese bonsai, as we know it now, is only about 200 years old. With the introduction of wire and metal tools, they improvised and innovated using both. Both thins lead to highly refined trees that were impossible using more traditional things. The Chinese were left behind as that country sank into communism and ideological purification during the post-war Cultural Revolution. Bonsai was a frowned upon in that country post WWII and actively discouraged and potentially persecuted in the Cultural Revolution of the 1960-70's.

 

[Hartinez]

Something I’ve heard of happening with older pots and stands from Japan and I think is also happening with older trees, is the importation of high end specimen into China. Again only hear say, but it’s my understanding that the market for bonsai in Japan while still very Robust, is not what it once was and the Chinese are starting to purchase and import world class trees and even buying back antique Chinese pots. Can anyone corroborate this? Cause I don’t know this for a fact.

 

[BobbyLane]

Something I’ve heard of happening with older pots and stands from Japan and I think is also happening with older trees, is the importation of high end specimen into China. Again only hear say, but it’s my understanding that the market for bonsai in Japan while still very Robust is not what it once was and the Chinese are starting to purchase and import world class trees and even buying back antique Chinese pots. Can anyone corroborate this? Cause I don’t know this for a fact.

what Ive heard more often, is that the younger generation just isnt interested in bonsai. Also that the quality of trees are suffering and many are being rushed out for import with more flaws than the norm, knobbly trunked maples, maples with inverse taper especially on those multi trunks and some of the sumo tridents with the big fat wide bases and a spindly leader are being sent out before theyre finished, this is coming from a nursery owner who goes out to one of the nurseries in Japan to pick and bring stuff back to sell in his nursery which he's been doing for years. he goes straight to the source, so he knows.

 

[rockm]

Something I’ve heard of happening with older pots and stands from Japan and I think is also happening with older trees, is the importation of high end specimen into China. Again only hear say, but it’s my understanding that the market for bonsai in Japan while still very Robust is not what it once was and the Chinese are starting to purchase and import world class trees and even buying back antique Chinese pots. Can anyone corroborate this? Cause I don’t know this for a fact.

China has a large and growing middle and upper class--that's by design of the Chinese government which is experimenting with a cross between communism and controlled capitalism. From what I've seen, that market is growing for bonsai. I have heard that some high end Japanese trees wind up in China. However, if you read the "Meaning of Bonsai" article I posted above--written by the curator of the Omiya Bonsai Museum--the interest from China and Korea at the museum is minimal. The article is ten years old, though.

I also know that the market for Chinese antiques is currently hot and has been for a while now. For instance, Chinese jades, furniture, and certain ceramics that are now in the West can bring hundreds of thousands of dollars at auction as monied Chinese buyers seek them out. How long that lasts is not at all certain, as the country's economic model can change...

 

[Maiden69]

I just feel that if these other very accomplished and skilled artists from other parts of the world were all apprentices of the Japanese masters, what makes them lesser than a Japanese artist who did their apprenticeship with the same master? What makes the Japanese artists' trees so much more worthy of praise?

They are praised by their students... its a form of respect. It is hard to understand if you have never lived on an Asian country or have close friends of Asian origin. They refer to their teachers with the utmost respect.

FWIW, being impressed with the results on a 1,000 year old collected juniper is easy. More than half the work on the tree was done by nature. Now turning a mediocre tree into a masterpiece takes technical know how-a different skill set than what a spectacular collected tree requires.

This is something that Ryan states about Kimura, ALL THE TIME! Especially when talking about junipers. Ryan stated that junipers are the hardest trees to bring out to their maximum potential. That Kimura start all his students wiring 100's if not more pines before he let them touch a world class juniper, and even then he watches over them, as Ryan said as "a fly stuck to a sticky trap", but we all know what he really meant.

Why aren't the bonsai heavyweights outside of Japan referred to as 'masters?'
I've never liked the term "Bonsai Master." I think of Jedi Master, Dungeon Master, DoJo Master and other Corny mystical things with that term. Can you truly master anything? Does Master mean to know everything possible about the subject as in there's nothing you don't know?

I think a better term is Bonsai Professional.

I agree with you, BUT, I think the reason they are referred as Masters is because they have been teaching the art for most part of their lives. Just like a Kung Fu Sifu or Karate Sensei... there are plenty of professional martial artists, but a Sifu or a Sensei is a master because they instruct. I guess eventually there will be masters here in the US, I think out of all of the ones mentions, Michael H is the only one with apprenticeship in his location. Bjorn is looking for one and as Mirai pretty much functions as a nursery with the online instruction platform.

Yeah, but that only explains so much -- the Chinese have been cultivating trees in pots for at least at long as (longer than actually) the Japanese. Where are all the Chinese Kimuras or Chinese Ryan Neils of the world? What specific cultural attributes in China explains this? I'm sure that there are very beautiful bonsai trees in China but the artists are not really world famous like the Japanese.

Chinese started the art... but their focus was different. If you look at any penjing tree, it is less refined whereas a bonsai tends to flow. Their art is an antonym to their martial arts, as Karate is more strict, with hard forms, and kung fu flows and is more graceful.

Some links with the differences

From Bonsai Empire
The main difference between Bonsai and Penjing is that Bonsai is a more refined, stylistic depiction of nature (often in single tree displays), whereas Penjing is more natural and wild (usually displayed in a landscape form)

Another link

Penjing Vs Bonsai | Bonsai Bark

 

[Frozentreehugger]

i think there is also a language translation element involved . In the orient what translates to master . Is also used for other. Achievements . Like other art forms . In the western world . The word master for example in art is generally used for master sculptors or artists . That changed art and are long dead . I do not speak oriental languages . So this is just speculation . But a great many words have different or more complex meanings in other languages .