Why can I find hardly any info on 'Japanese Pagoda' trees AKA 'Sophora japonica'

[Cypress]

I was peeking around Home depot today to see if they had anything interesting and ran into this 'Japanese Pagoda' or 'Sophora japonica'. It instantly caught my attention because the nebari are amazing... it's basically standing on 'stilts' already and would be perfect for a root over rock design.

I did a quick google search on my phone to see if this species was used as bonsai and I found enough to know that it is used for bonsai... but cannot find any detailed information on this species as bonsai, or any good pictures of this species as a mature bonsai. The leaf structure is very similar to honey locust, but once it's developed itno a mature bonsai I'm sure I can pruned it so the foliage will have a thicker/bushier appearance.

But basically does anyone know anything about this species for bonsai or can at least show me some pictures of mature specimens?

I've attached a couple pictures of the amazing nebari.

The third picture I pulled off of google images and is not from my tree, just to show what the leaves/foliage look like. My specimen is about 7 feet tall...

 

[Paradox]

Probably because its not a very common species used for bonsai so there isn't much info on it.

Learn as much as you can about its growth habits and tolerances. Try to apply the same techniques used for similar species. If you're successful, maybe you can teach others about the species.

 

[Cypress]

Probably because its not a very common species used for bonsai so there isn't much info on it.

Learn as much as you can about its growth habits and tolerances. Try to apply the same techniques used for similar species. If you're successful, maybe you can teach others about the species.

Yea for sure. It's funny because before I bought it I was looking up any info on it to see what sort of bonsai potential the species has. I found a couple pages that basically all that was said is it was recommended as a good species for bonsai beginners, but literally found no other information.

One of the biggest attractions that drew me to horticulture in the first place, for me, is the ability to experiment in all sorts of ways with living beings! I'm actually excited now that I can't find much bonsai related info for this species. I get to pioneer this species. The trunk is thick and the nebari are to die for and we'll see how I develop it over the next few years.

And of course I'll keep the forum updatated!

 

[misfit11]

Like Locust sp. it appears that it has compound leaves. Although there are excellent examples of bonsai out there using species with compound leaves, most people will tell you that it is done with great difficulty.

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but personally I would pass on this one. If you are determined, however, go for it. Maybe you'll become the authority on Sophora japonica bonsai!

Cory

 

[Poink88]

I have several compound leaf plants I am working on now (Logwood, TX Ebony, Brazilian Rain Tree, Guamuchil, and Cat's Claw). I agree that they are not the easiest to work with but they are not that much more difficult either IMHO.

Re: your plant, I may have different taste but I do not see that nebari as good and far from "amazing".

Check these...
http://www.bluegrassgardens.com/japanese-pagoda-tree-seeds.html
http://bernheim.org/featured-plant-of-the-month-weeping-japanese-pagoda-tree/
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/grow-japanese-pagoda-tree-29263.html

From this...
http://www.hort.uconn.edu/plants/s/sopjap/sopjap1.html

Looks like you need a really big bonsai to make it work. 1"-2" each leaflet, 7-17 leaflet per leaves, 6"-10" long leaves. I'll pass if I were you.

Good luck with it (if you decide to proceed)!

 

[Cypress]

Thanks for the input!

I broke out my measuring tape and on my specimen the longest leaves are about 7", and the longest leaflets are about 1 and 1/3 inches. So on the smaller end of the spectrum. I think if i plant it in the ground and grow it out to have a real thick trunk, and develop it to be a relatively taller, thicker, bonsai... proportionally the compound leaves would look nice. (longer compund leaves balanced out by a thicker and taller trunk.)

And at that point I was thinking I could develop it into a broom shape or weeping style.

 

[Cypress]

And who would get into practicing the art of bonsai in the first place if they weren't up for a challenge!

 

[Poink88]

And who would get into practicing the art of bonsai in the first place if they weren't up for a challenge!

We can just share our opinions. No one here can stop or force you so do as you wish! I just hope the result is worth the effort and time you put to it.

 

[kakejiku]

I am on a public computer right now, so I can not type the Japanese to search for bonsai care but will try tomorrow if you remind me....Below is the character in Japanese. It is read Enju in Japanese.

槐
読み方：えんじゅ、エンジュ

文法情報 （名詞）（かな表記が多い）
対訳 Japanese pagoda tree (Sophora japonica)

 

[marcosolo]

I have several compound leaf plants I am working on now (Logwood, TX Ebony, Brazilian Rain Tree, Guamuchil, and Cat's Claw). I agree that they are not the easiest to work with but they are not that much more difficult either IMHO.

Re: your plant, I may have different taste but I do not see that nebari as good and far from "amazing".

Check these...
http://www.bluegrassgardens.com/japanese-pagoda-tree-seeds.html
http://bernheim.org/featured-plant-of-the-month-weeping-japanese-pagoda-tree/
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/grow-japanese-pagoda-tree-29263.html

From this...
http://www.hort.uconn.edu/plants/s/sopjap/sopjap1.html

Looks like you need a really big bonsai to make it work. 1"-2" each leaflet, 7-17 leaflet per leaves, 6"-10" long leaves. I'll pass if I were you.

Good luck with it (if you decide to proceed)!

I agree with Dario here....And it seems a common trend with beginners to over emphasize and overestimate some tree characteristics, especially nebari....As with all things in this art, you have to develop the eye to recognize inherent things of greatness in a specimen and also spot things that are easily obtained and bettered through an artificial process......

 

[Cypress]

Lol, yes I agree with you. I think I get a little too excited over things that I really don't have an eye for yet.

But just so I can be aware of this in the future and make better decisions with what stock I buy, what do you see about these nebari that are undesirable?


This is what I saw when I looked at this plant at the nursery:
I know that the Nebari are not lateral, but more like stilts. And actually has a hollow area underneath the trunk (like a little cave/hollow). I know this isn't the cookie cutter bonsai nebari but I thought in the future I could have the nebari growing downward(like they are now) over a rock placed beneath the trunk...

root over rock style.

 

[Cypress]

I am on a public computer right now, so I can not type the Japanese to search for bonsai care but will try tomorrow if you remind me....Below is the character in Japanese. It is read Enju in Japanese.

槐
読み方：えんじゅ、エンジュ

文法情報 （名詞）（かな表記が多い）
対訳 Japanese pagoda tree (Sophora japonica)

Please do!

 

[kakejiku]

http://wenku.baidu.com/view/36a1367201f69e31433294af.html
This was the best link I could find...but I could not read it because it is in Chinese. Babelfish.com also was not able to translate, but had a human translator available for $8.00....
Also, I am not sure if this is the correct species as a different scientific name is given.
Broken down into 6 sections, size, when it flowers, I think 3 explains characteristics during different months. 4. is care and 5 is

 

[marcosolo]

Lol, yes I agree with you. I think I get a little too excited over things that I really don't have an eye for yet.

But just so I can be aware of this in the future and make better decisions with what stock I buy, what do you see about these nebari that are undesirable?


This is what I saw when I looked at this plant at the nursery:
I know that the Nebari are not lateral, but more like stilts. And actually has a hollow area underneath the trunk (like a little cave/hollow). I know this isn't the cookie cutter bonsai nebari but I thought in the future I could have the nebari growing downward(like they are now) over a rock placed beneath the trunk...

root over rock style.

The size of surface roots varies far too much, from the pics they seem to be concentrated on one side, their angle of entrance into the ground.....If I HAD to work with this specimen,I would more than likely layer to achieve a brand new and substantially better base.....

 

[Cypress]

The size of surface roots varies far too much, from the pics they seem to be concentrated on one side, their angle of entrance into the ground.....If I HAD to work with this specimen,I would more than likely layer to achieve a brand new and substantially better base.....

Thanks maracosolo! I see what you mean. But I've read in bonsai books that asymmetry is key! when growing a multiple trunk tree (if a twin trunk... one trunk would be larger than the other creating asymmetry), or if making a group plating, It is basically a "rule" to always have an odd number (3's,5's,7's etc...) in order to make it look natural...

I don't see how this rule doesn't apply to nebari as well.

Basically, if you develop nebari to be all the same size and to be symmetrical on all sides of the tree, then that is a travesty, IMHO.

The nebari on this tree are crazy, different sizes, asymmetrical, thick, and have A LOT of character. I love it. But I love odd things. when I root prune and plant it into the ground pretty soon I'll try to organize them a bit better, But I'm definitely keeping these roots. They'll make for a really original root over rock design, I believe IMHO.


Thanks for the guidance though!
-Mike

 

[Eric Group]

Cypress, the comments so far about compound leaves are dead on.., maybe not IMPOSSIBLE to work with, but DEFFINITELY more of a challenge than a novice should probably undertake. I tried for years to get Mimosa to turn into something, and they seem to be very similar in some ways tot his tree... There are more issues than just the clunky growth pattern. The vitality of these trees is such that a lot of "tinkering" will probably kill them. Mimosa for instance develop a big thick hollow trunk later in life and are prone to catching a wilt and dying off for almost no reason. They don't tend to live very long in relation to other species and not real cold tolerant or tolerant to chances in Soil...Again, maybe you set the world on fire and start a new trend in Bonsai with this one, but in reality you probably just have a new landscape plant... There are usually reasons why you don't find many pics of certain trees as good bonsai!

Another thing to consider is the difference in how you have to prune a compound leaf... Instead of just removing the tips of new growth to affect change, the ENTIRE compound leaf must be removed... So you really have to get a good bit of growth to pop before you even start pruning, and generally the weeping style will be the only one that is appropriate.

Good luck!

 

[Cypress]

Cypress, the comments so far about compound leaves are dead on.., maybe not IMPOSSIBLE to work with, but DEFINITELY more of a challenge than a novice should probably undertake. I tried for years to get Mimosa to turn into something, and they seem to be very similar in some ways tot his tree... There are more issues than just the clunky growth pattern. The vitality of these trees is such that a lot of "tinkering" will probably kill them. Mimosa for instance develop a big thick hollow trunk later in life and are prone to catching a wilt and dying off for almost no reason. They don't tend to live very long in relation to other species and not real cold tolerant or tolerant to chances in Soil...Again, maybe you set the world on fire and start a new trend in Bonsai with this one, but in reality you probably just have a new landscape plant... There are usually reasons why you don't find many pics of certain trees as good bonsai!

Another thing to consider is the difference in how you have to prune a compound leaf... Instead of just removing the tips of new growth to affect change, the ENTIRE compound leaf must be removed... So you really have to get a good bit of growth to pop before you even start pruning, and generally the weeping style will be the only one that is appropriate.

Good luck!

Thanks for your shared experiences Eric! I just want to walk through four of your concerns, and for each I will state how I plan to deal with each. I would really like to hear your input on my plans after I post this

"Tinkering" will probably kill them.: I plan on doing no tinkering with it anytime soon, I'm planting it in the ground this week where it will stay for at least 2 years to thicken the trunk, the most I'll do is comb out the roots radially and plant it on a tile to encourage lateral root growth. But I don't even want to root prune to any degree at this point.

They don't tend to live very long in relation to other species and not real cold tolerant or tolerant to changes in Soil...: I am going to be amending the soil on my land to suit each species I'm planting this week, so if it is shocked by soil changes perhaps I will keep most all the soil in the pot that it is growing in now mixed with the ground soil at a very high ratio.

As for cold tolerance, from what I've researched, you are right. I'll be planting it on the western side of a patch of woods so it will at least be protected from harsh eastern winter winds. The fact that they are selling them in upstate NY either gives me hope that'll it'll do ok this winter OR just that home depot has no idea what they're doing, hahaha.

And for age... I can't find any specific lifespans for this tree yet in my research but I do know they grow to 60' tall and 80' wide in the wild in China and Korea. So probably takes a while to get that big? Also implies the weeping form is the most natural if this tree is made to bonsai (you called it!)

You really have to get a good bit of growth to pop before you even start pruning, and generally the weeping style will be the only one that is appropriate.: Yes. I'm letting this guy thicken up for a few years to get a big trunk base. I think the thicker and taller the trunk the better it will balance out the long compound leaves and the future weeping leaf style.

But please.... FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD... Please tell me this tree backbuds? Or this will have been a waste of time. I would be really really really surprised if it doesn't. So that's not something I'm even worrying about.

Eric, I would really value your feedback on my thoughts here!

Thanks,
-Mike