Why do bonsai pots have large drainage holes ?

[Eric Group]

I like puppies.

I love... Lamp

 

[M. Frary]

I'll never quit asking to see someone's trees. As a matter of fact most new people here start out by asking about their new tree seeking help.
Someone with Bonsai Hunters level of knowledge about soil physics in bonsai pots should have a couple doozies.

 

[Solange]

Alright then.

 

[Eric Group]

Just wondering ...

View attachment 124142

Pots with square / rectangular holes do exist but very rare.
View attachment 124143

Square drain holes tend to crack more often during firing. @hometeamrocker mentioned this in a thread some time ago I think.

 

[Waldo Street Pottery]

Square drain holes tend to crack more often during firing. @hometeamrocker mentioned this in a thread some time ago I think.

I like the look but after getting lucky a few times I got bit and swore them off...

 

[MichaelS]

Yes, manual root pruning solves the circling problem (after the problem has developed) but why create the problem at all, in the first place ? Is prevention better or cure ? Besides, manual pruning wastes lot of root mass & growth time bcos of the need to keep roots short. Air-pruning of roots, on the other hand, keeps the roots not only short but also more densely packed and wastage is minimized during repotting. It works 24x7x365 unlike your once a year traditional repotting system.

Vinny is it? I've grown a million zillion trillion plants in pots. All kinds, not just bonsai. Cacti, cliveas, ferns, orchids, grasses, fruit trees, all kinds of trees and shrubs. I can assure you that growth of any plant hits it's peak when the roots hit the side of the pot and start to encircle the inside. That's why air pruning is only an advantage if you intend to take the plant out and move it into a larger one without touching the roots. Otherwise, you will get faster growth in a normal pot. If you want to slow growth a bit and have to water more then your pots will work fine. If you are growing to replant without root pruning, your pots will also work fine. Encircling roots in a container only slows down growth when they are so dense that they interfere with water, air and nutrient uptake. We repot before that happens. Certain nutrients like Fe and Ca are only taken up at the root tip. For continuous healthy growth we want to preserve the root tips as much as possible and not force the plant to constantly have to produce new ones all the time. It's like constant pinching, pinching pinching the leaves. It weakens plants. Sometimes nearly kills them. You need to them grow, THEN cut. Let grow THEN cut. That's the way to maintain vigor in the tree. Same with the roots. Let them grow, let them elongate as much as possible and the tree will thank you.

 

[Anthony]

Michael,

I would suggest caution.Though we have to repeat the test. The tamarind in the air-pot image I posted has more branches and smaller
leaves than the normal potted tamarind.

If we can repeat this at least three more times, it might be that the constant renewal of roots does affect the branching and leaf size of
a tree. We did end up pruning the air-pot plant a good many more times.

Next up is the seagrape, which we can produce almost 50 leaves on an a 10 cm tree. If we can increase that 80 /100 and maybe a few more
branches the air-pot will allow for some new ways to see trees with large leaves [ seagrape is dinner plate size.]

So after x years testing and maybe some visual results..
As usual thanks for taking the time to post.
Good Day
Anthony

* Hmm that makes Sifu 4 --------- Paul = Sifu , Adair = Sifu , Scott = Sifu, MichaelS = Sifu and Sorce and Googerah are Abbots
Hey we also have a Shaolin Bonsai Temple.
Seriously guys thanks for being here.

 

[Bonsai Hunter]

Here is a simple solution for the clogging issue pointed out earlier. Put a porous fabric on the entire floor.



Here is another alternate design. I just tried to blend a ceramic pot with an air-pot. I know most of you think this is a bad idea. If you can just summarize in what way is it bad for the tree in it, that would be great and we can leave it at that.

 

[Bonsai Hunter]

can we collectively stop asking to see someone's trees as if it actually is a way to quantify knowledge or ability? Anyone can buy a nice tree, and people can understand soil and pot physics without ever actually having grown anything, if they are willing. Also, never has someone shown a tree under these circumstances and the rest of the posters swung their opinions because the tree was so great xyz must know what they are doing lol. Never. Knowledge of a topic does not necessarily equate to great trees, and great trees don't necessarily equate to knowledge of a topic.

You said it perfectly, Solange. I too do not understand the logic of having to show my trees just because I asked a question on pot drainage. I think @M. Frary is confusing the science part of bonsai with the art part. "Son, first show me your art portfolio before you question the design of the pencil" or "Hey you potters on this forum, please show your trees at once to officer M.Frary. We will talk about your pottery after that only" Still if you want to see it, the links are given on page 2 of this thread.

Since this thread is about pot design, here are some of my pots :





I didn't invent or discover air-pruning but I certainly adopted it to my pre-bonsai quickly, even if it is decades old. I fail to understand the logic of age here though. Someone on this thread itself said bonsai pot design is 3,000 yrs old and they have no problem with that !

I do wonder why veterans haven't adopted it yet. What is their concern with air-pruning containers ?

 

[Solange]

I think that fabric would clog faster. Can you summarize why the pot would be good for the tree? What purpose are you using this hybrid pot for, and at what stage of development or refinement you would be using it and what specific result you would hope to achieve? Bonsai pot design hasn't changed because it works well for the purpose intended, and to assume no one has thought intelligently about these designs is itself the type of arrogance you are accusing others of. Asking for people to disagree with you, so that you may try to prove how wrong they are probably won't get you far.

 

[Grant Hamby]

I've wondered about a ceramic pot with a mesh floor. Kind of like one giant drainage hole that you can put a piece of mesh over. I keep thinking that the mesh would give a little, and you may not be able to secure the root mass as well.

I think a normal drainage hole would allow the floor of the pot to be more solid and the standard wire tie holes would be better to stabilize the tree. It would also keep the pot stronger.

I feel like the difference in drainage may also be negligible. If I pour a quart of water in both pots and wait 30 seconds, they'll both be empty.

I definitely feel like air pots/colander are better for root development and I wish they looked better for exhibits, but I just love the look & feel of tradition pottery in a composition.

 

[Bonsai Hunter]

I can assure you that growth of any plant hits it's peak when the roots hit the side of the pot and start to encircle the inside. That's why air pruning is only an advantage if you intend to take the plant out and move it into a larger one without touching the roots. Otherwise, you will get faster growth in a normal pot. If you want to slow growth a bit and have to water more then your pots will work fine. If you are growing to replant without root pruning, your pots will also work fine. Encircling roots in a container only slows down growth when they are so dense that they interfere with water, air and nutrient uptake. We repot before that happens. Certain nutrients like Fe and Ca are only taken up at the root tip. For continuous healthy growth we want to preserve the root tips as much as possible and not force the plant to constantly have to produce new ones all the time. It's like constant pinching, pinching pinching the leaves. It weakens plants. Sometimes nearly kills them. You need to them grow, THEN cut. Let grow THEN cut. That's the way to maintain vigor in the tree. Same with the roots. Let them grow, let them elongate as much as possible and the tree will thank you.

So if I wanted to buy a tree from a nursery to develop as a bonsai, are you saying I should buy the one growing in a regular plastic pot instead of an air pruning pot ? Hi @jeremy_norbury, looks like Michael does not approve of your pond basket either. Or the colanders being used by people here :-(

 

[choppychoppy]

I think the crux of all of this is the fact that a bonsai pot and a grow pot are not the same thing in the first place. A bonsai pot is for exactly that a bonsai tree. Bonsai Hunter you don't have any bonsai trees - you are growing cuttings and seedlings in your kitchen. You aren't doing bonsai on any level and no not even pre-bonsai. What you are doing is home gardening - what you are trying to accomplish is not what people are trying to accomplish with a bonsai tree. When you have actually worked on a bonsai tree and learned about long term care, cultivation, and refinement of an established tree you may get a clue about what bonsai is.

 

[Bonsai Hunter]

It makes no diffetence if it takes the pot 30 seconds or two minutes to drain the excess water. The amount of aeration is the same.

You are confusing the concepts of air pruning with air pruning. Two separate issues.

If you really want to grow seedlings fast, neither a bonsai pot nor a collapsed nor an air pot should be used. Growing in the ground is the fastest!

That said, fastest isn't necessarily best. Fast growing creates long internodes, and coarse thick roots. Neither of which are desirable bonsai characteristics. We want short internodes, a tapering trunk, lots of feeder roots close to the trunk.

Frequent repotting does indeed slow the tree down. But it allows us the opportunity to keep the nebari balanced, prevent a "one-sided" root system, create a shallow radial rootball, prevent crossing roots, etc. There are techniques used to enhance the nebari, such as the Ebihara Technique that Scott documented in a thread here. The colander method for growing pines is particularly effective when growing Shohin since they will need to be in small pots. It's less effective when trying to create a larger tree. Because to get a large tree, the roots need to be allowed to run.

Some people start their seedling pines in collanders to get a good nebari started, then move them into the ground for a couple years to bulk up, then dig them up and put them back into collanders to rebuild a rootsystem close to the trunk.

The purpose of a bonsai pot is NOT to be used to grow bonsai. It's to maintain a bonsai. Bonsai pots restrict root growth. Helping to keep the tree small.

The next best thing to use if you can't grow in the ground is a grow box. Oversized do the roots can extend.

Bonsai Hunter, lighten up on the attitude. You've only been doing bonsai for a year. You think you "know". You don't. You don't know that you don't know. I've been doing bonsai 45 years. I'm still learning new things.

Scott is a professional geologist. He knows more about drainage than anyone else I know.

One year in, you need to listening to others, not trying to change things.

I largely agree with you and maybe I wasn't clear enough or you have misunderstood me on the issue of grow challenge. Anyways, I see scope for improvement in the pot design. Lets leave it at that. I will do some crazy experiments with cement & plastic combo. I admit I was thinking shohin all the time as i live in a apartment. I am aware ground growing is best too. But at some stage it needs to come out from there into a grow pot.



And I am just wondering why can't that pot be an air pruning one, instead of a regular plastic or clay pot of same volume. Yes, I am aware of your background & have read many of your threads with interest. Well, my attitude was light to begin with till i got some snobbish royalty to peasant talk from mr. soil expert

http://bonsaiboon.com/pages/about_message.html

"In my early days, the way I learned bonsai was to pick up information wherever I could.
I attended numerous events by visiting bonsai teachers who came to the local club for
demonstrations or workshops, but each teacher had a different way of doing things. I
witnessed presentations that involving heavy cut-back, wiring, styling, and repotting,
all at the same time. I tried to ask about those trees and the total bonsai process,
but these classes were focused on putting something together in an hour or two. I knew even
then that this was the wrong way to care for bonsai—and the wrong way to teach. As I became
more passionate about bonsai, I began to step back and think there had to be a better way."


I am also exploring a better pot design. Boon says he was soaking up info from everywhere, even if it seemed to conflict. Same is my story. But one of the students of Boon would consider my youtube acquired knowledge as something to scoff at, forgetting his own teacher's history & also forgetting there are other experts on youtube too. Boon comes across as a humble person in video. Can't say the same about mr. soil expert though. Pity.
Anyways, your final thoughts on the proposed pot with plastic mesh might be a good insight for me. Hopefully this is the end of the this thread.

 

[Bonsai Hunter]

http://bonsaiboon.com/pages/about_message.html

"I am often amazed how quickly students pick up bonsai skills when they are held to high standards and are encouraged to ask questions."

Clearly questions are not welcome on the forum here I guess.

 

[Solange]

It's not that questions aren't encouraged, it's that you did not like the answers. Ever think of doing a grow challenge with yourself? Then you can find the answers for yourself, and learn from your own experiments. You are on your way to figuring things out, and discussing and questioning are good ways to get there. Accusing people of being flat out wrong who have been doing it much longer who are actively sharing knowledge is a good way to lock a thread and your development up.

 

[Paradox]

"The strength of one's opinion should not exceed their knowledge on the matter." - Eric Hirzel

"Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn." -Benjamin Franklin

 

[JudyB]

Hopefully this is the end of the this thread.

^^^
Not because you want to experiment, and try new things, but the way you fling your opinions around, and diss knowledgable people for their opinions and experience.

 

[berobinson82]

I missed Poink...

 

[Adair M]

I largely agree with you and maybe I wasn't clear enough or you have misunderstood me on the issue of grow challenge. Anyways, I see scope for improvement in the pot design. Lets leave it at that. I will do some crazy experiments with cement & plastic combo. I admit I was thinking shohin all the time as i live in a apartment. I am aware ground growing is best too. But at some stage it needs to come out from there into a grow pot.

View attachment 124518

And I am just wondering why can't that pot be an air pruning one, instead of a regular plastic or clay pot of same volume. Yes, I am aware of your background & have read many of your threads with interest. Well, my attitude was light to begin with till i got some snobbish royalty to peasant talk from mr. soil expert

http://bonsaiboon.com/pages/about_message.html

"In my early days, the way I learned bonsai was to pick up information wherever I could.
I attended numerous events by visiting bonsai teachers who came to the local club for
demonstrations or workshops, but each teacher had a different way of doing things. I
witnessed presentations that involving heavy cut-back, wiring, styling, and repotting,
all at the same time. I tried to ask about those trees and the total bonsai process,
but these classes were focused on putting something together in an hour or two. I knew even
then that this was the wrong way to care for bonsai—and the wrong way to teach. As I became
more passionate about bonsai, I began to step back and think there had to be a better way."


I am also exploring a better pot design. Boon says he was soaking up info from everywhere, even if it seemed to conflict. Same is my story. But one of the students of Boon would consider my youtube acquired knowledge as something to scoff at, forgetting his own teacher's history & also forgetting there are other experts on youtube too. Boon comes across as a humble person in video. Can't say the same about mr. soil expert though. Pity.
Anyways, your final thoughts on the proposed pot with plastic mesh might be a good insight for me. Hopefully this is the end of the this thread.

Yes, Boon did soak up information from everywhere, and there were conflicts. To resolve the conflicts, he went to Japan to become an apprentice. To learn directly from the source. Many of the conflicts were resolved. Many of the early publications we have in English that were supposedly translations of Japanese magazine articles were mistranslated. They were first translated from Japanese to Spanish, and then from Spanish to English. No one knows if the translator(s) knew anything about bonsai.

What Boon says is a better way to learn bonsai is in depth, immersive learning of seasonal work over an extended period of time. There's no way to "learn it all" in an afternoon workshop.

We, Boon students, do use "air pots" when appropriate. Along with ground growing, custom grow pots, and bonsai pots. Here's a picture of a lot of collanders in use at Boon's:



Those are trees in training. Once they have grown to the owner's content, they will be transferred to bonsai pots.

Bonsai Hunter, you are wasting a lot of intellectual energy fighting this battle.