Why no deadwood for broadleaf trees? Is it because they're "porous wooded" species, versus "non-porous wood/xylem" of conifers?

[SU2]

Here in FL, the "makes sense to grow" species are most often broadleafs not conifers (unless you count BC's) so that's what I've got, and I've used burnishing & l.sulfur for treating deadwood (I work with yama/yardadori almost exclusively, and almost always larger specimen -- so lots of deadwood in my collection)

I didn't really notice it til this year, just how much BETTER the deadwood jins/shari's were on my BC's, than on any other specie in my garden (ie of like several dozen deadwood accents in the nursery, the only handful that didn't need touching-up were the ones on BC's, the rest all needed annual treatment IE grind-back to clean wood and re-treat the deadwood)

It was when I was reading a scholarly-level book on trees that i learned that "Coniferous trees are said to have 'Non-Porous' wood, because their wood(xylem) lacks the Vessels that are part of broadleaf xylem/wood, conifers simply have tracheids, fibers & parenchyma cells -- not those plus Vessels like broadleafs" Reading that I was hit with "well there it is, maybe this 'Only conifers should have deadwood' thinking is based on aesthetics for most, but the ROOT reason is probably the simple fact that coniferous deadwood lasts, being non-porous, whereas broadleaf does-not"

Thanks a ton for any insight/understanding here, would love @M. Frary 's thoughts because I know you've read the book I'm reading (ISA's arb cert study guide), but yeah I have scores of bougies/crapes/maples/ficus with deadwood accents, IF fungi can penetrate this in a way they cannot on conifers then I suspect I've doomed all those deadwood accents and, instead of "cleaning & re-sealing" I should do-away with all of them post-haste :/

 

[leatherback]

well.. The main reason for not having deadwood is because most deciduous wood rots like butter in the sun. And as such, most deciduous trees would not have deadwood in nature, but rather have crakcs and hollows.

 

[Tycoss]

well.. The main reason for not having deadwood is because most deciduous wood rots like butter in the sun. And as such, most deciduous trees would not have deadwood in nature, but rather have crakcs and hollows.

This is highly dependent on climate. My understanding is that most of Japan is relatively warm and moist, so wood rots quickly in broadleaf trees. I live where it is relatively cold and dry, so insects and fungus that break down deadwood are restrained by the climate. Deadwood here even on deciduous trees like poplar and ash can last for years or even decades. Since we are mostly basing our rules on the Japanese aesthetic, deadwood on broadleaf trees is frowned upon because it makes no sense in their climate.

 

[BobbyLane]

This Oak tree is estimated 750 years old, they say it could be as old as 800 years. when i photographed it in 2015 it looked like this
The royal oak, estimated 750 years old by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

i was at the park last week and it still looks like this


In a pot you can preserve deadwood, there are all sorts of wood preservers on the market now. in the winters months i know a lot of you tuck your trees away, this preserves deadwood. some of you have roofed displays, some of you have tokonoma displays, this further provides protection from the elements if need be. some of you stick your trees under the benches in the winter months to stop trees becoming too wet, this is common in the UK, well this further preserves deadwood on trees in pots if need be. its now become a bit of a myth that deadwood on deciduous trees cannot last long. if you have a tree with deadwood you can take measures to preserve it quite easily if you wanted to.

but not that this matters to me. just making a point.

 

[Mikecheck123]

It rots. But you can use super glue.

Using Superglue To Harden Deadwood On Bonsai

Bonsai

bonsai4me.com

 

[BobbyLane]

Enjoy

i like when it rots, reminds me of the trees i see in the park. eventually the deadwood on this Oak will break off, its still extremely solid btw. but as it falls away you will just be left with a tree hollow from the top. which is very cool.

someone said deadwood rots like butter in the sun. that is false for many species.

 

[SU2]

well.. The main reason for not having deadwood is because most deciduous wood rots like butter in the sun. And as such, most deciduous trees would not have deadwood in nature, but rather have crakcs and hollows.

Any exceptions coming to mind for you? While I was/am curious Re the "Is this dichotomy of deadwood-quality due to conifers' xylem lacking vessels?", am equally interested in the pragmatic/practical side as I have >100 trees in my nursery, excepting a ~dozen BC&Podocarpus everything else is broadleaf yamadori so I have TONS of deadwood, just knowing ONE specie that "Sure, it lasts pretty long on Maples/etc" would help me (if I happen to have the specie LOL -- am in FL growing tropicals, ficus, maple BC etc!)

I like the "in nature" attitude, but - as I've grown in this art - I have found less & less of a desire/feeling that I need to "emulate nature" since trees "in the wild" take every shape&form, ugly&beautiful, and with bonsai sure I like a good Naturalistic styled tree done right (IE perfect so it's actually Naturalistic..) but my inclinations have always been to wilder, more 'art deco' extreme abstract stuff than just "this is a tree"....so deadwood-on-broadleafs is as useful to me as it is on conifers!

 

[SU2]

This is highly dependent on climate. My understanding is that most of Japan is relatively warm and moist, so wood rots quickly in broadleaf trees. I live where it is relatively cold and dry, so insects and fungus that break down deadwood are restrained by the climate. Deadwood here even on deciduous trees like poplar and ash can last for years or even decades.

Good to know-- BUT for our purposes, I'd still argue that that ^ disqualifies using deadwood, I mean the ultimate goal of all our artwork time here is "building that final-composure" of any given specimen, so if you know the deadwood won't be there in 10yrs it is kinda silly to allow it now / work-around & work-with it now....I guess in some specific cases but usually you're talking about the living tissue that abuts it building-up over time, so it's gotta look good even when it eventually fails and all there is is the thick living tissue that had grown-around the now-gone deadwood

Heck here in humid, semi-tropical FL I found burnishing to be better than L.Sulfur and can even keep bougainvillea deadwood going for ages, but I know that if I mess-up and don't keep on top of artificially preserving it, it'll all rot quick & die....and it's not "I'm too lazy to maintain my deadwood" it's just that I see it as silly to work towards a "final composure" while keeping temporary deadwood ;D

 

[SU2]

darnit not only do I have to remove a lotta jins/etc, but I've probably got half a dozen specimen with massively long shari that I'd figured would be part of the final composure, some are trunk-length shari that, if they were gone, the tree would be horrible....sadly I think I'm now realizing a good # of my more 'radical'/abstract larger pieces may not be viable (well for another half decade maybe but not long term, not for my lifetime if I don't die early!)

 

[BobbyLane]

Good to know-- BUT for our purposes, I'd still argue that that ^ disqualifies using deadwood, I mean the ultimate goal of all our artwork time here is "building that final-composure" of any given specimen, so if you know the deadwood won't be there in 10yrs it is kinda silly to allow it now / work-around & work-with it now....I guess in some specific cases but usually you're talking about the living tissue that abuts it building-up over time, so it's gotta look good even when it eventually fails and all there is is the thick living tissue that had grown-around the now-gone deadwood

Heck here in humid, semi-tropical FL I found burnishing to be better than L.Sulfur and can even keep bougainvillea deadwood going for ages, but I know that if I mess-up and don't keep on top of artificially preserving it, it'll all rot quick & die....and it's not "I'm too lazy to maintain my deadwood" it's just that I see it as silly to work towards a "final composure" while keeping temporary deadwood ;D

thats your job as a bonsai artist to make it look good not just for the now but for the future. a bit of that will come down to how well you can visualise outcomes and consequences.

as the outer shell on this deadwood rots, which will be a very long time btw because ive left it quite dense for that reason.
but as inevitably rots the tree would be just left with a hollow arch and callus will begin to roll in around the edges as it does on the trees i see in the park, like the oak above even.
but that said, the deadwood will last a very long time and ill enjoy it during that time and get more detail into the wood as time goes on

 

[leatherback]

Any exceptions coming to mind for you?

Olives are non-coniferous with naturally occuring yins and deadwood sections.

Mostly, coniferous species have a lot of resin which reduces the speed of decay.

I find it funny when people say that trees do not rot away easil, and then show a trunk which has hollowed out completely due to natural decay.

For most broadleaves, if a branch dies it will soon break down, the wood will start to rot and hollows occur. For coniferous species that is just not the case. No matter which way you want to spin it, that is the main reason why. Next to the obvious, coniferous species often do not close over larger cuts as deciduous trees do.

Remember, Japanese bonsai mostly are about the strive for perfection.

 

[BobbyLane]

nobody is disputing that deadwood on conifers lasts longer

some branches break down quicker than others, as shown above with the Oak.

 

[BobbyLane]

This post from Shibui in another thread nails it for me:

"Trees can survive happily for many years even when completely hollow. The interior wood of trees does little for the living tree as all the life processes occur in the layers close to the bark.
Rot will continue to affect wood exposed to all the necessary elements but plants are usually able to prevent that rot moving to the living sections nearby so while the heartwood may rot the outer living section should continue to grow.

I don't think that wood preservers prevent decay from moving to live parts of the tree because the tree does that. Preservers just maintain the dead wood for longer.

Debate about dead wood on deciduous is another kettle entirely. Personally I see no reason for prohibiting it. It may not be popular for Japanese bonsai but bonsai has, and should, evolved over time. There are plenty of great examples of natural deciduous trees with dead wood and hollows and some great trees with these features bonsai coming out of Europe as growers gain the confidence to look outside previous accepted norms and to actually really look at their native species."

 

[BobbyLane]

gonna have a cuppa tea now and sit down to watch some deadwood work on this Oak

 

[Adair M]

It’s really not a deciduous vs conifer thing. It’s more about the tree’s native environments, and whether deadwood is persistent in that environment.

For example, pines. Pines that tend to grow in high altitudes such as JWP and Bristlecone pines can keep deadwood for centuries. Japanese Black Pine, since it’s native habitat is close to the ocean tends to have it’s deadwood rot away fairly quickly, so they actually look “more natural” without deadwood. Not to say that it can’t happen, it’s just not the norm.

A juniper, however, is pretty much always expected to have some amount of deadwood.

Hollow deciduous trees are risky. Sure, they occur in nature, but they are clearly in dangerous territory health wise.

In bonsai, the use of deadwood is supposed to portray the feeling of age. Used properly, it’s striking! Used poorly, well, it makes you wish it wasn’t there.

 

[BobbyLane]

It’s really not a deciduous vs conifer thing. It’s more about the tree’s native environments, and whether deadwood is persistent in that environment.

For example, pines. Pines that tend to grow in high altitudes such as JWP and Bristlecone pines can keep deadwood for centuries. Japanese Black Pine, since it’s native habitat is close to the ocean tends to have it’s deadwood rot away fairly quickly, so they actually look “more natural” without deadwood. Not to say that it can’t happen, it’s just not the norm.

A juniper, however, is pretty much always expected to have some amount of deadwood.

Hollow deciduous trees are risky. Sure, they occur in nature, but they are clearly in dangerous territory health wise.

In bonsai, the use of deadwood is supposed to portray the feeling of age. Used properly, it’s striking! Used poorly, well, it makes you wish it wasn’t there.

they dont just occur in nature. they often thrive in nature. i just posted a tree thats been sat there for hundreds of years. it obviously went over over everyone's heads. there are many like it all over the UK. some are coming to the end of the struggle, it happens, while others are absolutely thriving.

the fact that the dead part of the tree doesnt affect the live part of the tree went over heads too.
hollow deciduous trees are not risky, again, they often live for 100s of years.

likewise, poorly executed deadwood on conifers sticks out like a sore thumb. especially with all that lime sulphur. often it looks contrived or just not like something that would be seen in nature.

VERY, VERY rarely do you see anyone doing deadwood on a conifer because of something they saw in the wild, often its just a copy of somebody else's tree. you rarely see anyone referencing a wild tree when talking about jin/deadwood etc.

 

[M. Frary]

Personally I'm not a fan of dead wood features.
Where I come from dead wood on a tree is basically a dead tree or one that doesn't know it yet.
Decidious trees and some coniferous trees like fir and larch can live while being hollow but never as long as trees that aren't.
They're weak and are diseased for sure.
Yeah as stated an oak ( about the only species here) can hang on for years while hollow but aren't as stable as a person would like. Parts are always falling off and they collapse unexpectedly.
All that being said,none of those trees are bonsai.
No matter what anyone says ,a tree in a bonsai pot isn't in a natural setting. From the soil to watering to the placement and finally the pot.
A person not nature controls the trees fate.
That makes their existence artificial.
Meaning dead wood on a deciduous tree is possible to control and usable.
Hopefully this helps.

 

[Adair M]

they dont just occur in nature. they often thrive in nature. i just posted a tree thats been sat there for hundreds of years. it obviously went over over everyone's heads. there are many like it all over the UK. some are coming to the end of the struggle, it happens, while others are absolutely thriving.

the fact that the dead part of the tree doesnt affect the live part of the tree went over heads too.
hollow deciduous trees are not risky, again, they often live for 100s of years.

likewise, poorly executed deadwood on conifers sticks out like a sore thumb. especially with all that lime sulphur. often it looks contrived or just not like something that would be seen in nature.

VERY, VERY rarely do you see anyone doing deadwood on a conifer because of something they saw in the wild, often its just a copy of somebody else's tree. you rarely see anyone referencing a wild tree when talking about jin/deadwood etc.

Bobby, you live in the UK, where you don’t have the type of environment that favors conifers with deadwood.

I used to think much like you stated. I live in the Southeast United States, and we don’t have deadwood conifers around here, either. I never “got” the appeal of the deadwood junipers.

Until I started traveling to California, and studied with Boon. Not only did he have many “finished” deadwood junipers, he also had an inventory of relatively raw freshly collected junipers. Where the deadwood was natural. Seeing these, I began to understand the appeal.

BUT…

It wasn’t until several years later, Boon took me up on a hike up into the Sierra mountains, near the California/Nevada border, up at 10,000 feet. There, the Sierra juniper live at and sometimes “above” the tree line. Some of those junipers were 2000 to 3000 years old. Massive, massive deadwood. From a distance, it appeared to be stark white. Up close, it’s a very bleached out grey with tons of checks and cracks and fissures giving it an amazing texture that cannot be replicated.

My appreciation for deadwood junipers took on a whole different perspective!

So…. When I read your post, I can relate to where you are coming from. But, I think if you ever have the chance to see the these trees up close and personal, you would have the same epiphany I had.

Here are just a couple of the trees I “met”:

 

[BobbyLane]

Bobby, you live in the UK, where you don’t have the type of environment that favors conifers with deadwood.

I used to think much like you stated. I live in the Southeast United States, and we don’t have deadwood conifers around here, either. I never “got” the appeal of the deadwood junipers.

Until I started traveling to California, and studied with Boon. Not only did he have many “finished” deadwood junipers, he also had an inventory of relatively raw freshly collected junipers. Where the deadwood was natural. Seeing these, I began to understand the appeal.

BUT…

It wasn’t until several years later, Boon took me up on a hike up into the Sierra mountains, near the California/Nevada border, up at 10,000 feet. There, the Sierra juniper live at and sometimes “above” the tree line. Some of those junipers were 2000 to 3000 years old. Massive, massive deadwood. From a distance, it appeared to be stark white. Up close, it’s a very bleached out grey with tons of checks and cracks and fissures giving it an amazing texture that cannot be replicated.

My appreciation for deadwood junipers took on a whole different perspective!

So…. When I read your post, I can relate to where you are coming from. But, I think if you ever have the chance to see the these trees up close and personal, you would have the same epiphany I had.

Here are just a couple of the trees I “met”:

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those are lovely, if you had those in your backyard i would definitely see the appeal too.
i often find it hard to see why so some many people are drawn to pines and junipers but have nothing like it growing on their doorstep.

 

[Ohmy222]

Many of the points are valid but a large part of it is just traditional bonsai rules demand deciduous to be scarless. The prunus varieties are about the only ones you will ever see there. The Europeans embrace far more. In terms of broadleaf and tropicals you definitely see some with deadwood like bougies and buttonwood. Olives are almost a requirement. I personally don't care if it looks good. I do find most carving to look very contrived and out place though so I don't do it myself but some collected material with deadwood has a nice character to it. Brian van Fleet's Hawthorn has deadwood and looks magnificent.