Why not winter?

[Woocash]

I went to a local nursery at the weekend and they told me the best time to go for hornbeam, beech etc is when they get all their bare root or rootball stuff in, after dormancy kicks in. This got me thinking.

So far, I have been able to find mostly two schools of thinking when it comes to collecting trees. Collect in autumn/fall with leaves still on or collect in spring just before bud burst. Nurseries, however, wait until the tree enters dormancy then dig them up, clean and trim roots and they can often wait weeks or months before being re planted. So, if this is how a whole industry does it, what is the benefit of us doing it in autumn or spring? Or, rather, why is the best time to do it not in winter?

Is it anything to do with collecting coniferous versus deciduous? Cold shock? General terrain type? Size or age of tree? Et cetera, et cetera.

 

[Shibui]

Not sure about you guys with really cold winters but I came to the same conclusions a number of years ago after seeing our nurseries getting bare rooted fruit trees and ornamental trees in almost as soon as the leaves dropped.
Even though conventional wisdom was to wait until spring I started root trimming and collecting from late autumn right through to spring and have had few problems but, of course, our winters are mild - temps just a few deg below freezing and frozen soil just doesn't happen here.
Given your nurseries are able to do it I'd be interested to see if you can too.

 

[BobbyLane]

i pick up root balled trees over the winter quite often and re pot them straight away usually.. works fine for me. spring, summer, autumn or winter im not really fussy. yes bare root season in the UK is between end of oct and apr. i visited one of my places last week, they wont have much deciduous in until end of month. they had loads of rootballed taxus trees though.

a few of these hornbeams were picked up over winter, as was the copper beech

Carpinus material

Recent work on a powerful carpinus, this tree will be for sale shortly...

www.bonsainut.com

European Copper Beech

Fagus sylvatica purpurea Hi folks, this is a tree i acquired in jan from a bare root nursery, its only early days, but its already been through a root reduction, to get it into a training pot and also a little wire here and there....its responded well and im quite happy and confident its going...

www.bonsainut.com

its one of those that you can experiment with for yourself. everyone will have different views on this. ive never been one to ask, i just get things done and i learn from the trees reactions. eventually i know what i can get away with any given time.

 

[rockm]

I'd be very cautious doing this in the U.S... Winter will kill newly potted or worked trees. Cut root ends will rot, helped along by freezing and thawing. If I barerooted and did root work on hornbeam here between December and April with no where to put the tree that doesn't freeze, it would be dead or substantially dead by early spring. Nothing more disappointing than getting a decent trunk, then having 80 percent of it, or 100 percent of it, die off.

 

[James W.]

The best timing for a nursery to dig and sell may or may not be optimal for the plant or for bonsai. Consider the source.

 

[BobbyLane]

so many variables isnt there, which is why i just do my own thing and ive never lost a deciduous tree from a nursery, when repotting in winter. why? well take the beech for eg
they call it 'bare root' season or 'rootballed' but really all their doing is digging up a tree that was grown specifically for hedging material. look at the size of the rootball, they dig a rootball to a certain size for all the trees this size. do not compare this with digging from the wild, most rarely get a root ball this size when digging from the wild.
so they say root balled but what you get in the UK at least is a large amount of roots with most of the field soil intact. you think if you cut a bit around the edges of a root ball this size it wont survive the winter? a few dead roots here there isnt going to affect the health of the tree much if you know what youre doing. i know because ive killed a few beeches.
https://flic.kr/p/2huSBUG
this is a hornbeam i did in dec
20181227_123103 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
20181227_131925 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
20181227_132045 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
20181227_131953 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

july
2019-07-12_12-13-54 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

i did this privet in feb
20190223_125240 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
20190223_145644 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

aug 2019-08-17_07-32-03 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

see what the common theme is here, you leave enough feeder roots on the tree and it doesnt even bat an eyelid. these are not collected trees, the advice should be different, these trees are either container grown with a pot full of roots or were grown in a bed specifically for the purpose of being dug up with a healthy rootball.

i could go on with these progressions, but i wont clog up the thread. i have threads all over the forum documenting what ive done, no matter what time of the season.

i think when you have enough experience as i do, you can sort of make your own rules. works for me and keeps me enjoying bonsai and being busy with my trees all year round.

 

[BobbyLane]

some of these trees, i do the bulk of the work at the nursery. if i was to ask everyone if this is ok to do this i would be told, 'only one insult per season' 'dont do top n bottom at the same time' etc or 'no that is too much all at once'
ffs if i dont chop the top n bottom off then i dont get it in my car or i dont get to carry it home

i did this at the nursery in the month of feb

from this
20180320_121723 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

snap, crackle, pop
20180320_122923 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
20180320_124031 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr


by march it was like this, thats a fine pad of feeder roots.
its not necessary to bare root material like this, the nebari is already there, most would kill for a nebari like this. there is no need to tease out or bare root. all i do with these is fill in with bonsai soil and new feeder roots grow into the fresh soil. teasing out or bare rooting as which is often recommended would just of set this tree back. one can see the amount of work which was done already.
20180321_175008 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

no die back
2018-07-29_05-32-53 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr


for me bare root season is like 'sweetie shop' season. i need to get to the nursery earlier this year though, or they take those rootballed trees and slam them into massive containers and cover everything up with soil. its hell to get them out of that mess, mainly because of all the hidden wire from the cloth/hessian bag.

 

[Woocash]

Cool beans Bobby. I’ll be getting there half way through November and seeing what I can rustle up. You’ve got some great examples there. How long does it normally take you to transition from nursery soil to bonsai soil if you leave a section of rootball in tact and just fill in, as you put it?

its one of those that you can experiment with for yourself. everyone will have different views on this. ive never been one to ask, i just get things done and i learn from the trees reactions. eventually i know what i can get away with any given time.

Yes to be honest, I think most of us tend to do what we like in the end. I mean, my reaction was likely to be get to half way through December or January and dig a few average stumps up and see how they fare come spring time after providing a little winter protection for them.

I just wanted to know the whys and wherefores of winter collecting really. From my viewpoint it could only make sense to be from excess cold, or because they aren’t capable of healing large wounds when dormant. Though, most trees you are taught to hard prune in winter, if possible, when sap isn’t flowing. Different kettle of fish, I know.

Not sure about you guys with really cold winters but I came to the same conclusions a number of years ago after seeing our nurseries getting bare rooted fruit trees and ornamental trees in almost as soon as the leaves dropped.
Even though conventional wisdom was to wait until spring I started root trimming and collecting from late autumn right through to spring and have had few problems but, of course, our winters are mild - temps just a few deg below freezing and frozen soil just doesn't happen here.
Given your nurseries are able to do it I'd be interested to see if you can too.

That’s pretty much what I thought. As Bobby said, there will be different growing conditions, but i’m going to be collecting trees from fertile lowland flood plains, in the main, where a decent rootball is often possible to find and the roots haven’t had to dig deep for sustenance. I’ll protect from hard frosts and see where it gets me.

 

[BobbyLane]

tbh im not really obsessed with removing every grain of nursery soil asap. as you can see with the hornbeams they will always likely have a dense pad that contains a little nursery soil. look out for my threads which i update regularly. some of the material i get the soil is less dense and compact and therefore im able to remove more nursery soil. it varies, not one size fits all

i do do progression threads for my own benefit to work as a type of log, but i also hope that others can see them and benefit too. i posted a link above called carpinus material.
the first tree in that thread has a picture of how the roots looked when it was potted up with barely any nursery soil on, well in this case field soil

there it is again.

this is from a rootballed tree not one thats been sat in a nursery pot or air pot in a nursery.
so on this one the soil is less compact and it can be removed all by hand and a root hook, spray bottle. i dont wash the roots

 

[sorce]

If I may...

This is all dependent on the soil the nursery is planting in, also, how often it is watered.

If the nursery @BobbyLane buys from plants in, and waters a soil that promotes many close feeder Roots, it may be way different if the plants @rockm worked with are planted in different soil watered different.

There is also the variable before that...

A plant started in an airpruning pot will have many more close feeders than one started in the ground, or a plug pot.

Let's not argue things with so many variables.
Our own planted seeds will be bonsai before we come to a conclusion.

Sorce

 

[BobbyLane]

Thats correct Source, i did mention there being many variables in one of my posts. tbh you wont get many places that had hornbeams in airpots like above.

 

[rockm]

If I may...

This is all dependent on the soil the nursery is planting in, also, how often it is watered.

If the nursery @BobbyLane buys from plants in, and waters a soil that promotes many close feeder Roots, it may be way different if the plants @rockm worked with are planted in different soil watered different.

There is also the variable before that...

A plant started in an airpruning pot will have many more close feeders than one started in the ground, or a plug pot.

Let's not argue things with so many variables.
Our own planted seeds will be bonsai before we come to a conclusion.

Sorce

Uh, nope. It's the temperature, if you're talking winter root reduction. The average low temp I can come up with in England is 34 F. In Va. its 28.
It remains much colder here --and most of the middle Atlantic states--for longer too. A barerooted chopped rootball will turn to mush here in the winter. Been there done that.

However, if one is patient enough to wait for March, more drastic root reductions than the one picture are routine for collected hornbeam here. I don't have any problem with drastically reducing roots. I have a problem doing it in December. That's a death sentence no matter what kind of soil you use.

 

[sorce]

It's just a true statement that an army with a million soldiers can take much more loss than one with 500 soldiers and still win the war.

It doesn't matter if they are fighting in Russia or Argentina.

Sorce

 

[Woocash]

I thought the key concern would be freezing roots, to be honest. As Rockm said, the temperature is rarely that low. We have high humidity and wind chill which makes it feel much colder than elsewhere (which I can attest to having experienced -18c in Canada and only needing a coat and t-shirt at the time). We also have a fairly unique climate for the latitude, I think. When compared to other European countries at least, the UK has cooler summers and warmer winters because of the Gulf Stream.

So with that in mind, I think winter collections are probably not necessarily going to be as detrimental if trees can be protected from the worst of it. The guidelines weren’t written for the UK climate, I suppose.

I’d love to know if people in warmer US states still collect in winter.

 

[BobbyLane]

i would look closer to home personally, have you observed what they're doing in Croatia? do some research on Andrija zokic, marija hajdic

I personally would collect these trees in spring. The reason is that one needs very good frost protection after collecting. I cannot provide this as I have almost 1000 trees and no possibility of save overwintering for extra ones. My Croatian students in Dalmatia, which is at the sea, collect in November and December, sometimes in January and February. They do not need super protection in winter as palm trees are growing close by. -Walter pall-

look up their work, the trees are some of the best in all of europe.

the above information was posted by Walter in the late summer repotting thread. i would bookmark informative threads such as these.



its actually well known some folks will collect or repot trees during this period if one can give frost protection.
are you familiar with Harry harrington? his work is well documented, he collects at various times throughout the year, uses a poly tunnel.

on my balcony ive never really bothered with protecting trees from frost.

 

[peterbone]

Exposing the roots to cold has already been mentioned. The other issue with winter collecting is that a lot of the tree's energy is stored in the roots during dormancy. If you collect at this time then you're removing a lot of the tree's energy that it needs for leafing out in Spring. A lot of energy is also stored in the trunk though, so perhaps it's not too bad as long as you can protect from frosts. Note that a lot of nursery trees will already have fairly compact rootballs even if they've been growing in the ground for a while. Trees that have been growing in the wild their whole life are a different matter.

 

[BobbyLane]

Exposing the roots to cold has already been mentioned. The other issue with winter collecting is that a lot of the tree's energy is stored in the roots during dormancy. If you collect at this time then you're removing a lot of the tree's energy that it needs for leafing out in Spring. A lot of energy is also stored in the trunk though, so perhaps it's not too bad as long as you can protect from frosts. Note that a lot of nursery trees will already have fairly compact rootballs even if they've been growing in the ground for a while. Trees that have been growing in the wild their whole life are a different matter.

good point.not many know that.

 

[rockm]

I thought the key concern would be freezing roots, to be honest. As Rockm said, the temperature is rarely that low. We have high humidity and wind chill which makes it feel much colder than elsewhere (which I can attest to having experienced -18c in Canada and only needing a coat and t-shirt at the time). We also have a fairly unique climate for the latitude, I think. When compared to other European countries at least, the UK has cooler summers and warmer winters because of the Gulf Stream.

So with that in mind, I think winter collections are probably not necessarily going to be as detrimental if trees can be protected from the worst of it. The guidelines weren’t written for the UK climate, I suppose.

I’d love to know if people in warmer US states still collect in winter.

Define "winter" Winter in "warmer" states ;-) Texas ends in mid-February for the most part, which is when collection can begin down there. In Virginia (which is warmer than, say Massachusetts, or even Pennsylvania, February collection is mostly out of the question, as the ground can be frozen solid a foot down or more in bad winters. Mid-March to early April...You can probably collect in subtropical Fla. all year.

 

[Forsoothe!]

The best timing for a nursery to dig and sell may or may not be optimal for the plant or for bonsai. Consider the source.

It's traditional and convenient in the industry. Fall is both a slow season for retail sales and the best time to dig trees to get them ready to ship the following spring when the weather breaks, and the trees aren't going to get any bigger. Every nursery wants a load of trees delivered for the new season at about the same time for opening of the retail season, on or about April 1st. Each nursery considers sales of the prior season and decides what they want for next season and places their orders in December or January. How do you dig & ship a billion trees all at one time? You don't dig them when the soil is frozen, and you need to trim them to fit economically together on a truck. There's a lot of man hours involved making trees ready for market. You spend autumn doing all this and overwinter them bunched up together all-in-a-row mulched under the wood-chips you make from the trimming you do. On or about March 1st you call the trucks in and they don't even shut the diesels off as they parade through the narrow lanes in the fields, and the lift trucks load 'em up & ship 'em out to the whole country in a month.

They don't have our luxury of picking and choosing what the best time for the tree is, like we do. It works for them anyway.

 

[BobbyLane]

It's traditional and convenient in the industry. Fall is both a slow season for retail sales and the best time to dig trees to get them ready to ship the following spring when the weather breaks, and the trees aren't going to get any bigger. Every nursery wants a load of trees delivered for the new season at about the same time for opening of the retail season, on or about April 1st. Each nursery considers sales of the prior season and decides what they want for next season and places their orders in December or January. How do you dig & ship a billion trees all at one time? You don't dig them when the soil is frozen, and you need to trim them to fit economically together on a truck. There's a lot of man hours involved making trees ready for market. You spend autumn doing all this and overwinter them bunched up together all-in-a-row mulched under the wood-chips you make from the trimming you do. On or about March 1st you call the trucks in and they don't even shut the diesels off as they parade through the narrow lanes in the fields, and the lift trucks load 'em up & ship 'em out to the whole country in a month.

They don't have our luxury of picking and choosing what the best time for the tree is, like we do. It works for them anyway.

root ball or bare root season here in the UK starts even earlier, from end of oct to apr. it works because although maybe a little ruthless in the methods, they dig the tree up with more than enough root to survive.

2017-03-23_09-43-47 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
2017-03-23_09-43-36 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

usually lots of branching too. so even if you reduced the root ball pretty hard, there is more than enough reserves to produce new roots and get the tree going again. this is in regard to nursery and root ball stock.
2017-02-01_04-33-28 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

2017-02-01_04-32-56 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

most who collect trees, rarely get that much root. ive seen loads of examples on here where ive often wondered how these collected trees are surviving with so little root.
i can root prune these, get them into a suitable training pot and theyre good to go at anytime of the season.