Why not winter?

[James W.]

To clarify, bare root is not the same as ball and burlap (B&B). Not even close.
"Bare root" is exactly that, no dirt at all. Typically includes tops cut back to absolute minimum. Trees are done this way to reduce shipping costs, not because it is good for the trees. Most trees will take a couple of years to recover.
B&B is like what we would like to do when collecting trees if we had the equipment.

 

[BobbyLane]

sure. its called bare root season. the period where bare rooted trees or root balled trees are available. the images ive shared above are sold as root balled trees. you guys call them BNB.

this is what a bare root hawthorn looks like in the UK. sold as a bunch of very young plants, the idea is its bought and planted straight into a hedgerow. i wouldnt use this for bonsai material myself.

 

[BobbyLane]

To clarify, bare root is not the same as ball and burlap (B&B). Not even close.
"Bare root" is exactly that, no dirt at all. Typically includes tops cut back to absolute minimum. Trees are done this way to reduce shipping costs, not because it is good for the trees. Most trees will take a couple of years to recover.
B&B is like what we would like to do when collecting trees if we had the equipment.

so are there places where you can go and buy rootballed/ballnburlap trees in the states?

 

[Warpig]

so are there places where you can go and buy rootballed/ballnburlap trees in the states?

Yea they are common. Especially as you start getting away from getting a tree from a 'nursery' and look more at wholesale. Like where landscaping companies get their stock.

 

[BobbyLane]

Yea they are common. Especially as you start getting away from getting a tree from a 'nursery' and look more at wholesale. Like where landscaping companies get their stock.

its a great way to acquire substantial material at a fraction of the price it would cost at a garden centre. why are more folks not taking this approach?

 

[Shibui]

Most nurseries over here stock bare root trees during winter. I mean bare root - branches, trunk, roots and nothing else. The trees are several years old, anywhere between 1 and 2m tall and still have almost all the branches. They are typically stored in mounds of damp sand or sawdust while waiting for buyers. Deciduous fruit trees, roses and deciduous ornamental landscape trees are all supplied this way and the vast majority of them survive the experience with little apparent setback. Bare root trees are substantially cheaper than equivalent potted trees. The drawback is the defined seasonal availability - from leaf fall through to new bud growth.
Growers are now using root control bags and air pruning rocket pots to supply trees like these and even bigger for transplant at other times of the year.
I have not seen B&B here for many years.

Wholesalers are not always keen on walkup customers who may only want 1 or 2 trees. Having staff available to service anyone at any time costs money and therefore puts the prices up closer to retail. Some growers do allow public sales - by appointment or at defined times of the day, week or months to allow best use of staff time.

 

[Cable]

It's traditional and convenient in the industry. Fall is both a slow season for retail sales and the best time to dig trees to get them ready to ship the following spring when the weather breaks, and the trees aren't going to get any bigger. Every nursery wants a load of trees delivered for the new season at about the same time for opening of the retail season, on or about April 1st. Each nursery considers sales of the prior season and decides what they want for next season and places their orders in December or January. How do you dig & ship a billion trees all at one time? You don't dig them when the soil is frozen, and you need to trim them to fit economically together on a truck. There's a lot of man hours involved making trees ready for market. You spend autumn doing all this and overwinter them bunched up together all-in-a-row mulched under the wood-chips you make from the trimming you do. On or about March 1st you call the trucks in and they don't even shut the diesels off as they parade through the narrow lanes in the fields, and the lift trucks load 'em up & ship 'em out to the whole country in a month.

They don't have our luxury of picking and choosing what the best time for the tree is, like we do. It works for them anyway.

It should be noted that not all nurseries do it like this. We’re one of the largest in the country and we do not, as a general rule, fall dig spring ship. We do most digging in the spring with limited digging in the fall for fall sales, mostly on demand. We might dig a few unsold trees if it is needed to finish off a row and overwinter but it is usually safer for us in Ohio to leave them in the ground. We don’t start shipping until mid to late March because garden centers are still frozen though we do have some Fall Ship Spring Bill customers that get their order in Fall. We take Spring orders in October.

its a great way to acquire substantial material at a fraction of the price it would cost at a garden centre. why are more folks not taking this approach?

Most folks can’t do the quantities to purchase wholesale.

 

[BobbyLane]

funnily it was a garden centre employee who said to me one day, hey i know you do bonsai, you would be better off going to the big tree nurseries and asking. i didnt think they would allow me to buy but i asked n they said sure fine.from there on i went to various wholesale places and most were welcoming and now i have trade cards at two from simply showing them a screenshot of my ebay sales, these were places that id already bought numerous trees from previuosly, so they know i do bonsai.

Ryan neil does it so i dont see why others cant tbh.
some will be ok with it, some wont.

 

[BobbyLane]

to be clear, at first i was going and picking up trees on my vespa.i wasnt buying wholesale.just one tree here n there. then in my mini i was still picking up one or two at a time. i have a bigger car now, a coupe.i can still only manage one to two sometimes 3 trees.
i guess some of you guys who have trucks could do more at a time.which would then qualify as wholesale

 

[BobbyLane]

i was just having a look on the Meleda bonsai facebook page, they are based in Croatia near the coast....

these images are from jan 2018. these trees are worth thousands of £
the Emperor Hornbeam was shown at noelanders, its out here in the snow third image down

in dec they're scouting collecting sites

Croatia has two climates, as you may well expect – one along the coastline, and one for the interior of the country. If you’re visiting, here’s what to expect for climate and weather in Croatia!

Climate & Weather in Croatia – Coast
The coast has a typically Mediterranean climate consisting of hot, dry, sunny weather during summer, and relatively mild – though somtimes wet – weather in winter.

Average temperatures during summer should lie in the mid-to-high 20s °C/77-86°F, although it is more likely that you’ll have temperatures well into the 30s °C/high 80s or low 90s °F.

Winters are obviously cooler, although temperatures never really get below about 5°C/41°F. Anything colder than this is considered freak weather, though technically not impossible – in the last ten or so years, there have been occasions of snow in parts of Dalmatia, such as Zadar and Split. In some winters, even Dubrovnik (one of the most southern points of Croatia) has seen a light dusting of snow.

It is not usual for summer weather to stretch out into autumn with temperatures in the high teens or even low 20s (Celsius) – meaning some hardy souls still hit the beach and go swimming.

In general, however, during autumn and winter on the coast, you will still experience some sunny days, although it can sometimes get quite rainy.



i mentioned to @Woocash to look closer to home, to see what the pros are doing in these areas, because when i look at the temps there is not much difference to what we get in the south of england and here in london as well as parts of croatia, snow is considered a 'freak' occurance. winters are very wet here but temps rarely drop below 5c.

to sum up, i dont always do what i want, i look at what the experts are doing too. i use a lot of whats being done in parts of europe as a yardstick for my own stuff.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Those trees look like multiple saplings bunched into making a tree. I'm not being critical, I do it, too.

 

[BobbyLane]

LOL show me one of yours

 

[BobbyLane]

this reminds me of the comment the other day of when i posted a hornbeam with an almost flawless radial root spread, some chap said it looked 'contrived'
probably not realising or having discovered yet that some species naturally produce fluted muscular trunks and radial rootbases, a genetic trait in one particular species. go do some research.

while some are spending the time doing ebihara and trying to attach new roots where there are none. up pops a tree with a ready made radial root spread and the chap says it looked 'contrived'. at the time i just thought it was funny and didnt comment on it.

 

[GGB]

Yeah, it's already been said a few times. But I think geography rules here. "winter" in the Uk, Australia and Southern USA is basically fall where I live. If your nursery is able to bare root in winter then it's pretty good evidence that you can too. Just like @Cable said, nurseries in the North don't fiddle around with trees too much because of the temps. My town sees -5 F/ -20C occassionally and there's much colder parts of US, Canada, and Europe than that. I think the winter advice is just a general tidbit you can learn to ignore.

 

[GGB]

I see Zach Smith and others collecting trees in February, because that's when it's best for them. Their February is my April, a good example of why we try to speak in seasons versus months, but it still loses legitmacy across borders and planes (and plains).

 

[Woocash]

i mentioned to @Woocash to look closer to home, to see what the pros are doing in these areas, because when i look at the temps there is not much difference to what we get in the south of england and here in london as well as parts of croatia, snow is considered a 'freak' occurance. winters are very wet here but temps rarely drop below 5c.

to sum up, i dont always do what i want, i look at what the experts are doing too. i use a lot of whats being done in parts of europe as a yardstick for my own stuff.

Thanks for your input with the thread, Bobby. Had a bit of a busy last couple of days. Really I was mainly curious about as to whether people do collect in winter in the US rather than to gain advice.

You’re right to point out what they do in Croatia. I had watched a few sandev videos on YouTube about collecting and they seem to be doing it in the same time frame I was considering but I never thought to consider their climate in any detail up until you mentioned it so thanks very much. Also, thanks for the mention of Andrija Zokic and Marija Hajdic. I’d never heard of them before, but they have some truly amazing trees. I actually saw the ‘emperor’ late last night and was in awe, especially seeing as it is a tree that is only 10 years in development so funny you mention it today. Crazy prices, mind you, considering that they are relatively young in terms of development.

I can definitely see why you’re so enamoured with Hornbeams, those trees have such a massive presence. Shame we don’t have orientalis here though. Their lower, compact habit must save years of development. They will be my priority when bare root and rootball season arrives.

As far as collecting here in winter, their temperatures being similar to ours do give me some more confidence that trees will survive or even thrive afterwards, especially seeing as I can give them protection. I have a hawthorn, an elm, a maple and a hazel lined up so we’ll see. One thing i’ve not been able to find from the Croat collectors is much about their aftercare regime or even tree care in general, however. I’ll have to dive further down the rabbit hole.

 

[Forsoothe!]

LOL show me one of yours

My limes are wrapped tight in their second year so you wouldn't see much. I wasn't being critical, I've never seen a tree other than a BC with flutes like that, which I admire. The commentary was aimed at the appearance of so many at one place and I thought that they had some trick way of producing them. Trees of that species should be sold in the USA, I'm sure there's a ready market.

 

[BobbyLane]

My limes are wrapped tight in their second year so you wouldn't see much. I wasn't being critical, I've never seen a tree other than a BC with flutes like that, which I admire. The commentary was aimed at the appearance of so many at one place and I thought that they had some trick way of producing them. Trees of that species should be sold in the USA, I'm sure there's a ready market.

they already are, youll be surprised what can be found with a little research

Preparing American deciduous broadleaved trees

Jennifer, Ron, Jeff and Walter have fun working on these trees. These are all deciduous broadleaved trees which were collected in America. They are mostly American hornbeams, Swamp Maple, oaks, linden, hydrangea and others. You can see what they look like after two vegetation periods and how...

www.bonsainut.com

Truck load of Hornbeam!!!

This is a European Hornbeam we potted/bagged the other day. The owner has made this a yearly event and likes them BIG! This beam actually squatted his Ford truck pretty good! After driving 4 hours, making his decision and doing the work from ground to pallet bag... We were beat!

www.bonsainut.com

 

[BobbyLane]

Thanks for your input with the thread, Bobby. Had a bit of a busy last couple of days. Really I was mainly curious about as to whether people do collect in winter in the US rather than to gain advice.

You’re right to point out what they do in Croatia. I had watched a few sandev videos on YouTube about collecting and they seem to be doing it in the same time frame I was considering but I never thought to consider their climate in any detail up until you mentioned it so thanks very much. Also, thanks for the mention of Andrija Zokic and Marija Hajdic. I’d never heard of them before, but they have some truly amazing trees. I actually saw the ‘emperor’ late last night and was in awe, especially seeing as it is a tree that is only 10 years in development so funny you mention it today. Crazy prices, mind you, considering that they are relatively young in terms of development.

I can definitely see why you’re so enamoured with Hornbeams, those trees have such a massive presence. Shame we don’t have orientalis here though. Their lower, compact habit must save years of development. They will be my priority when bare root and rootball season arrives.

As far as collecting here in winter, their temperatures being similar to ours do give me some more confidence that trees will survive or even thrive afterwards, especially seeing as I can give them protection. I have a hawthorn, an elm, a maple and a hazel lined up so we’ll see. One thing i’ve not been able to find from the Croat collectors is much about their aftercare regime or even tree care in general, however. I’ll have to dive further down the rabbit hole.

they use polytunnels, for the more delicate stuff like olives and other medeterranean species