Why organic soil?

[Clicio]

Probably more important than what the media is, is particle size and particle size distribution. Using sieves to eliminate fines and big chunks is the single most important thing to do to improve the quality of your potting media.

Uniform particle size creates the best structure for air penetration into the media. Sieves are the tool to do this.

Very good point.

 

[Cajunrider]

It is a very different story being in a real tropical climate. It's not just the heat, it's the hot wind, the temperature variation, humidity in the summer and drought in the winter.
Of course I understand that we are not arguing about this matter; it's just my experience. My plants are doing well with my watering schedule and 1/3 organics in the mix.
Very good discussion, I enjoy learning from other people's experiences.

Another part of the equation is the capability of the bonsai owners to handle watering task. I often am required to travel on short notice. On quick 2 day trips my trees with higher organic percentages don't suffer much even in the summer. Perhaps some day in the future I will have a designed watering system to make things easier.

 

[leatherback]

Perhaps some day in the future I will have a designed watering system to make things easier.

I have a great one which I could recommend, except that divorces can be costly and I do not want to give her up, tbh.

 

[Maiden69]

In truth, the argument organic versus inorganic is a red herring, a false dichotomy. If you use organic fertilizer such as rape seed cake, sugar cane bagasse, cotton seed meal, fish emulsion, sea weed extracts, or any of dozens of other organic products often sold with names involving "bio" and "green" or "gold" or "magic" or "miracle", the result of using organic fertilizer is that the inorganic media acquires an organic component, hence becomes an organic mix.

As far as I know Miracle Grow All Purpose Plant Food is not organic and it is what I use along with Osmocote Plus. I tried fish oil but couldn't deal with the smell... I may try organics once I move the trees into pots.

 

[ChristianDGreat]

I have a few small tree's under a soil called foxfarm.
I notice the growth is more vigorous and the roots are thick.
*the watering is different as well, the soil dont dry quick like the traditional mix (akadama, lava, pumice).

Which is really good for material that you want to develop trunk.

 

[It's Kev]

I do 50/50, and I overpot since I only have time to water in the morning and at night, I’m not at home to give them a mid day cool down.

 

[ShadyStump]

I have a few small tree's under a soil called foxfarm.
I notice the growth is more vigorous and the roots are thick.
*the watering is different as well, the soil dont dry quick like the traditional mix (akadama, lava, pumice).

Which is really good for material that you want to develop trunk.

That stuff was originally marketed for pot growers, and I've used it for container gardening before. It others like it are really just perlite and Coco coir with a ridiculous price, maybe some mulch or compost of some sort.
Save yourself some money.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I think I'll be adding more organic components to some of my soils. Where I live, it often gets DRY. The air itself can get super dry and it just sucks moisture out of everything. I feel like my trees in inorganic soil just get dry too fast. This is especially true in summer and fall. With work, I can't be here during the hottest time of day to water.

 

[JackHammer]

I find it difficult to convince myself to use all inorganic soil. It means you have to fertilize every week or so, watering twice a day, and it feels like it's completely unnatural for the tree.
Like most things, it's a trade-off: higher maintenance for greater control. I have nothing at the moment that warrants that level of control, and the level of care is impractical for me.
I'm still setting into a soil mix that's right for me, but I'm certain for now that it would be heavy on organics.

From what I can tell, the argument for pumace comes from root growth and oxygen. If there is oxygen, roots tend to grow faster, increasing the health of the tree. The warning on organics seems to be the water logged compaction. Rather than using organic nutrients, you add your own via fertilizer. If you do it correctly, you can increase growth.

It isn't that there are no organic nutrients, they just have to be added. It sounds almost conceited to think we people could provide nutrients better than nature. But in nature, you won't find natural nice roots that are designed for a small pot.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I have mostly deciduous trees and use 40% pumice, 40% calcined clay and 20% pine bark. Rarely had to water more than once a day. Use BonsaiPro about every third watering. It doesn't really get too dry here.

Organic soil grows trees quickly and bonsai soil slows them down.

It sounds almost conceited to think we people could provide nutrients better than nature.

I'm far from an expert, but don't understand why a tree in a pot would grow better in organics, especially if we are talking about a potting soil-like substrate. I view organics as basically a source of moisture and nutrients. Watering and feeding does the same and I find the roots grow better/nicer free from too-wet organics. Less organics allows me to water more, which increases aeration and allows me to feed more. If I didn't have to go to work, I'd probably drop the bark and use an organic fertilizer.

Nature is wild and unforgiving. Call me conceited, but constant human intervention in a hyper controlled environment will always produce a better result.

 

[ShadyStump]

From what I can tell, the argument for pumace comes from root growth and oxygen. If there is oxygen, roots tend to grow faster, increasing the health of the tree. The warning on organics seems to be the water logged compaction. Rather than using organic nutrients, you add your own via fertilizer. If you do it correctly, you can increase growth.

It isn't that there are no organic nutrients, they just have to be added. It sounds almost conceited to think we people could provide nutrients better than nature. But in nature, you won't find natural nice roots that are designed for a small pot.

I have mostly deciduous trees and use 40% pumice, 40% calcined clay and 20% pine bark. Rarely had to water more than once a day. Use BonsaiPro about every third watering. It doesn't really get too dry here.



I'm far from an expert, but don't understand why a tree in a pot would grow better in organics, especially if we are talking about a potting soil-like substrate. I view organics as basically a source of moisture and nutrients. Watering and feeding does the same and I find the roots grow better/nicer free from too-wet organics. Less organics allows me to water more, which increases aeration and allows me to feed more. If I didn't have to go to work, I'd probably drop the bark and use an organic fertilizer.

Nature is wild and unforgiving. Call me conceited, but constant human intervention in a hyper controlled environment will always produce a better result.

All fair points.

I think @HorseloverFat was the one who mentioned sometime back the parallels between growing bonsai in inorganic media, and hydroponics. That notion has stuck with me, but I'm also not in a strong position to manage that level of control. I just don't have the time or resources, so I resign myself to mediocrity, and enjoy what I can.

 

[HorseloverFat]

All fair points.

I think @HorseloverFat was the one who mentioned sometime back the parallels between growing bonsai in inorganic media, and hydroponics. That notion has stuck with me, but I'm also not in a strong position to manage that level of control. I just don't have the time or resources, so I resign myself to mediocrity, and enjoy what I can.

Indeed!!

I (helped) grew storage buildings of cannabis and indoor peppers before bonsai.

This parallel helps me "nute" them (containerized trees in inorganic substrate) properly.

 

[BobbyLane]

Think some of you would be surprised. Ive picked up many trees from nurseries, that were growing in potting soil or whatever they use, with fantastic root spreads and fine feeder roots.
below is pretty much what many are trying to achieve with non organic mixes.
I guess I could show many more examples but wont clutter the thread

 

[BobbyLane]

Im not goin to argue with the results that mother nature can produce either.
you can find yamadori trees with outstanding nebari that dont need much human intervention at all apart from root pruning every 10 years or so when in a pot

 

[Clicio]

Im not goin to argue with the results that mother nature can produce either.

For me, in my climate, with my trees, organics always work.

 

[HorseloverFat]

The trees that live the whole year outside, in my "garden".. in development, range from 1/2 - 3/4 inorganic...

I like varying barks a lot.

Only my Trops/subTrops/arids/ect. and Trees in bonsai pots are given completely inorganic...

But that's me.. in my climate.

 

[JackHammer]

The part of this debate that I never got an answer for is: when organic soil is depleted of nutrients, it becomes inert. Other than the general size of the organic compound/humus, how is that different from a non-organic substrate, which would also be inert?
I know drainage and such, but what about from a chemical and nutrient component..?

 

[Kodama]

Good thread...taking mental notes. Thank you for sharing!

 

[Wulfskaar]

The part of this debate that I never got an answer for is: when organic soil is depleted of nutrients, it becomes inert. Other than the general size of the organic compound/humus, how is that different from a non-organic substrate, which would also be inert?
I know drainage and such, but what about from a chemical and nutrient component..?

I think it could still hold water longer. But if it gets to that point, wouldn't we want to repot anyways?

 

[PowerTap]

Dan Robinson of Elanden Gardens pots on 1/3 fir bark, no akadama and doesn't repot his trees. So there are many roads to success.

Elandan Gardens

www.elandangardens.com