Will Heath Disappeared with Robert Steven's Pot

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As you may know that I had recently made the limited edition antique bonsai pot repro produced in the ancient Dragon Kiln of China, and had been selling through http://aobkobstore.com. Will Heath was the one I shipped my pots and does the selling. But recently I received several emails from people who had ordered and paid for the pot but never received it; and also from the AoB Contest winners who never received the pot as I had sponsored.

I had been trying to send emails to Will, even send SMS to his mobiles..but no respond... and recently Paul Stokes replied in http://knowledgeofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4713 telling Will was disappeared. Will STILL OWE ME THE MONEY FOR ALL THE POTS I SHIPPED TO HIM FOR SALE.

I simply can't believe he can do this to me and to the bonsai community...I lost my full respect to him as I did as the editor for my book “Mission of Transformation” and as a friend. I really fill ashamed on him and feel sorry for him to have destroyed his own reputation in the bonsai community !!! He should had told me if he had any personal problem and I would be pleased to help on his payment, but not in silence and does not ship out after receiving payment from others.

Through this message, I warn all of you for NOT to order anymore the pot... I just feel very sad that all my afford to make this limited edition pot ends up on this guy's hand. Maybe one day the pots in his stock will be distributing around, and let this issue be part of the pot’s history....hehe…

Last but not least, despite of my money (not a big deal in fact), I think the one who is running KoB and AoB should clarify this issue officially through the forums as this certainly is damaging the reputation especially on future KoB/AoB’s contest.

Best bonsai regards,
Robert S.

[EDIT] I hesitated posting this because there is a lot of finger pointing here, but ultimately I think it would benefit the bonsai community to have this issue clarified. Hopefully this issue will be resolved and hard feelings will be mitigated. - BNut [/EDIT]
 

Mike Page

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[EDIT] I hesitated posting this because there is a lot of finger pointing here, but ultimately I think it would benefit the bonsai community to have this issue clarified. Hopefully this issue will be resolved and hard feelings will be mitigated. - BNut [/EDIT][/QUOTE]

BNut, it is right that this is posted. It takes the light of day to resolve the mysteries of the night.

Mike
 

misfit11

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This has all been hilarious! Thanks for the entertainment.:D
 

JasonG

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Whatever anyone does, don't type anything that might offend someones feelers, or this too might get closed..

Remember folks, no one is forcing you to read this or look at a certain post. If you don't like what you are seeing then change the channel. Don't go cry about it so that it is off limits for everyone!! Simply move along to something that makes you happy.

Jason
 

Attila Soos

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For some reason, this latest chapter on Will takes me back to an old thread where he so passionately talked about his own relationship with God, and the virtues that one can gain by nurturing that relationship...

....never mind, excuse my rambling.

(I am still under the influence of visiting Dan R.'s magic garden in Bremerton, a few days ago. But this thread is slowly bringing me back to the realities of human misery. I didn't know all this about W., but this latest development gives me the creeps.)
 

grouper52

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For some reason, this latest chapter on Will takes me back to an old thread where he so passionately talked about his own relationship with God, and the virtues that one can gain by nurturing that relationship...

....never mind, excuse my rambling.

(I am still under the influence of visiting Dan R.'s magic garden in Bremerton, a few days ago. But this thread is slowly bringing me back to the realities of human misery. I didn't know all this about W., but this latest development gives me the creeps.)

Hey Atilla! Can't believe you came all the way up here and didn't let me know! I was spending the weekend honing my five point palm exploding heart technique in anticipation of a ninja attack from the south, but I surely would have been able to come say hi if I'd have known. :D

Not to keep the flame alive, since the original thread was closed, but I did spend a wee bit of time earlier today crafting a response to Aliane's post # 140, in which I think he was expressing an interest in having me elaborate on my reference to the treatises on friendship by the Greco-Roman moral philosophers. Here it is for anyone needing a soporific to help induce sleep tonight. The names have been changed to protect whoever needs protection.

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The Greco-Roman moral philosophers traced their ideas about friendship back largely to Aristotle, specifically his Nicomachean Ethics, the bedrock of Western civilization.

Aristotle believed that, in order to understand a phenomenon like friendship, we must know the causes of that phenomenon. For friendship, he found three different causes, and therefore posited three basic types of friendship - friendships of utility, of pleasure, and of virtue.

Two people can become friends when it is mutually useful for them to do so, such as a friendly relationship between two workers who have to work side by side, or merchants who trade with each other. With no more of a foundation than that, these friendships dissolve once the utility is no longer needed by one or both of them

Two people can also become friends based on the mutual pleasure they receive in each other’s company. As people change over time, so do their tastes and preferred activities, and these sorts of friendships then also tend to dissolve, a pattern we’ve all experienced.

In the final category are the friendships of virtue, the highest and least common and most enduring form of friendship. The bases for the first two types - utility and pleasure - have their roots in selfishness, considered a low-level good, whereas the basis for a friendship of virtue is the love of others and the love of virtue, higher order goods, indeed the highest good that a person can achieve. This type of friendship, then, is based on wishing the best for our friend - not only wealth and health, but wishing him the greatest good - a virtuous mind, and a life lived virtuously. Such an attitude is more mature, and therefore these types of friendships are more common in older individuals, and they increase and deepen over the years. Built on a more solid foundation, they are less transient, and can withstand more stress. They also require true caring for the friend, even to the point of critical or “tough love” measures if that is best for the friend, especially if that is what is needed to help the friend grow in virtue.

In the current discussion, a certain Mugo pine craftsman appears to be making a statement that he has a friendship of virtue with a certain pot merchant, such a deep and abiding friendship indeed that he is willing to take a dangerous stand "in the breach” for his friend’s sake. But two questions then arise:

!. Has the Mugo pine craftsman naively entered into what he assumed was a bilateral friendship of virtue, only to find himself now dangerously "in the breach" defending a pot merchant who seems neither willing nor perhaps capable of friendship of the virtuous type, but only friendships of utility or pleasure?

2. If the Mugo pine craftsman is truly engaged in a friendship of virtue, and really wants the best for the pot merchant, would he not be an even truer friend if he stopped enabling and covering for his friend’s clearly non-virtuous behavior, and instead put their friendship itself to the test by confronting the pot merchant, and insisting he shape up and do the right thing?

Anyway, these are the sorts of insights that Aristotle’s analysis leads to, and the later Greco-Roman moral philosophers merely built on this foundation in practical ways.

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Better than Lunesta, no?
 

Glider

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For some reason, this latest chapter on Will takes me back to an old thread where he so passionately talked about his own relationship with God, and the virtues that one can gain by nurturing that relationship...

....never mind, excuse my rambling.

Yes, I still remember one of the things he said back then: "...and what do you teach your atheist children?"
 

Lancaster

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Grouper, your intellect and wit leave me laughing and admiring your ability all at once. Thank you. :)
 

Attila Soos

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Hey Atilla! Can't believe you came all the way up here and didn't let me know! I was spending the weekend honing my five point palm exploding heart technique in anticipation of a ninja attack from the south, but I surely would have been able to come say hi if I'd have known. :D

Thanks Grouper, I think I would have liked to see you at Dan's place even more than you seeing me, but since I didn't know the exact time until a day before, I felt that it would be rather self-centered of me to call you on such a short notice.

But I was lucky that Dan had a visitor from Georgia at the same time, so I had a chance to tour the garden with him for over an hour and listen to his stories. I only had a couple of hours altogether, but I wish that I could have spent a whole week just looking at those beauties.

I've seen many great collections here in California, but there is nothing close to what I've seen at Elandan. It just blew me away.
 
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Thanks Grouper, I think I would have liked to see you at Dan's place even more than you seeing me, but since I didn't know the exact time until a day before, I felt that it would be rather self-centered of me to call you on such a short notice.

But I was lucky that Dan had a visitor from Georgia at the same time, so I had a chance to tour the garden with him for over an hour and listen to his stories. I only had a couple of hours altogether, but I wish that I could have spent a whole week just looking at those beauties.

I've seen many great collections here in California, but there is nothing close to what I've seen at Elandan. It just blew me away.

Atilla... so bummed to have missed the chance to experiance your enthusiasm for the garden. I totally got distracted by house buying drama... :p

I'll look forward to seeing you this fall in Santa Clara though... :)



As to the pot thing... makes me glad I didn't order one. I almost did. But when it came down to it, I wasn't willing to buy it from him. I hope more will be made sometime and someone like Bill V will carry them.

V
 

Vance Wood

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2. If the Mugo pine craftsman is truly engaged in a friendship of virtue, and really wants the best for the pot merchant, would he not be an even truer friend if he stopped enabling and covering for his friend’s clearly non-virtuous behavior, and instead put their friendship itself to the test by confronting the pot merchant, and insisting he shape up and do the right thing?

Anyway, these are the sorts of insights that Aristotle’s analysis leads to, and the later Greco-Roman moral philosophers merely built on this foundation in practical ways.

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Better than Lunesta, no?

You are making two flawed assumptions: One, that you know what happened and are interpreting it correctly, and two; that I don't know what has happened and am blindly making myself a fool.

As to the stealing of pots. All pots are accounted for journalized and sent with the exception of the six that were won in the contest. Those will be sent the first of September when the addresses can be retrieved and the shipping arranged for. I know it has been suggested that there were pots sold but not sent. This is not true.

All transaction through AoB are done with Pay Pal and as such the buyer is guaranteed full refund if materials are not sent. So, as it has been suggested, Will has cheated someone out of their pots or what ever is untrue. Will is guilty of one thing; not communication with Robert Stevens in a timely manner due the theft of a lap top, the illness of his mother, and a job that has become increasingly difficult in our wonderful 13.5% unemployment market place here in Michigan. Contrary to what some may think the RS pots are not a big seller and Will is not sitting on a pile of Robert's money.
 

grouper52

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You are making two flawed assumptions: One, that you know what happened and are interpreting it correctly, and two; that I don't know what has happened and am blindly making myself a fool.

As to the stealing of pots. All pots are accounted for journalized and sent with the exception of the six that were won in the contest. Those will be sent the first of September when the addresses can be retrieved and the shipping arranged for. I know it has been suggested that there were pots sold but not sent. This is not true.

All transaction through AoB are done with Pay Pal and as such the buyer is guaranteed full refund if materials are not sent. So, as it has been suggested, Will has cheated someone out of their pots or what ever is untrue. Will is guilty of one thing; not communication with Robert Stevens in a timely manner due the theft of a lap top, the illness of his mother, and a job that has become increasingly difficult in our wonderful 13.5% unemployment market place here in Michigan. Contrary to what some may think the RS pots are not a big seller and Will is not sitting on a pile of Robert's money.

While I do not rejoice in the misfortunes of others, I am also not frequently of the opinion that they make acceptable excuses for not honoring obligations, especially in the secretive way this has transpired. Once again, the excuse of the stolen laptop is lame, as many have pointed out here. As for the rest, I was laid off a year ago and had to scramble to get on my feet again, and my own mother died with me at her bedside seven months ago after a protracted debilitating illness - and through all that, as I have done throughout all the ups and downs of my life as a matter of principle, I honored my obligations.

It will be interesting to see if those complaining here and elsewhere will now agree with you that all is well, that all debts are finally made good in full, that the secretive, extended delays are accounted for satisfactorily. For you to say so is one thing - for those who have felt cheated to say so will be the real test.
 

mcpesq817

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You are making two flawed assumptions: One, that you know what happened and are interpreting it correctly, and two; that I don't know what has happened and am blindly making myself a fool.

As to the stealing of pots. All pots are accounted for journalized and sent with the exception of the six that were won in the contest. Those will be sent the first of September when the addresses can be retrieved and the shipping arranged for. I know it has been suggested that there were pots sold but not sent. This is not true.

All transaction through AoB are done with Pay Pal and as such the buyer is guaranteed full refund if materials are not sent. So, as it has been suggested, Will has cheated someone out of their pots or what ever is untrue. Will is guilty of one thing; not communication with Robert Stevens in a timely manner due the theft of a lap top, the illness of his mother, and a job that has become increasingly difficult in our wonderful 13.5% unemployment market place here in Michigan. Contrary to what some may think the RS pots are not a big seller and Will is not sitting on a pile of Robert's money.

If that's the case, why hasn't Will paid Robert the money he owes him? No offense, but we all have busy lives, difficulties, etc. All it seems we get from Will are one excuse followed by another followed by a disappearance.
 
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Contrary to what some may think the RS pots are not a big seller and Will is not sitting on a pile of Robert's money.

While there might not be a pile of money sitting around, the pots that Robert sent and have not been paid for seemed significant enough to him to take this public. Once again it's not about amounts or degrees, it's about principle, which always seems lost on Will and his apologists.
 

JasonG

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It will be interesting to see if those complaining here and elsewhere will now agree with you that all is well, that all debts are finally made good in full, that the secretive, extended delays are accounted for satisfactorily. For you to say so is one thing - for those who have felt cheated to say so will be the real test.

Exactly!!

All of the response's on ALL the forums have been very recent, within the past few weeks or less. So it is very obvious that this hasn't been a satisfactory end to the issue. C'mon even if the pots were shipped in the past week since the story became public that is still a lame attempt to think things ahve been made right.

The laptop excuse still floors me.....Robert has been out for over a year, and many of the people who have publicly come forward on the forums have been screwed out of thier pots for many, many months.

It is sad to hear about Wills mother, both Will's, but like Grouper Will says, you soldier on and take care of your obligations. I too have been unemployed for quite a while, now I have the best job of my life thanks to OBAMA!!!, so I can relate to the struggles.

A bad reputation has been made worse than what it was and now the cat is out of the bag and nothing said can undo that. Sorry Vance and Will, the damage has been done I think.
 

Vance Wood

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While there might not be a pile of money sitting around, the pots that Robert sent and have not been paid for seemed significant enough to him to take this public. Once again it's not about amounts or degrees, it's about principle, which always seems lost on Will and his apologists.

Again you have followed in the path of saying what others say and not looking into the real facts for yourself. The facts: Robert Steven sent these pots to AoB on consignment and not as a direct sale with money due. Robert Steven receives funds as pots sell; no sales no money. Simple?
 

M.B.

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As to the stealing of pots. All pots are accounted for journalized and sent with the exception of the six that were won in the contest. Those will be sent the first of September when the addresses can be retrieved and the shipping arranged for. I know it has been suggested that there were pots sold but not sent. This is not true.

All transaction through AoB are done with Pay Pal and as such the buyer is guaranteed full refund if materials are not sent. So, as it has been suggested, Will has cheated someone out of their pots or what ever is untrue. Will is guilty of one thing; not communication with Robert Stevens in a timely manner due the theft of a lap top, the illness of his mother, and a job that has become increasingly difficult in our wonderful 13.5% unemployment market place here in Michigan. Contrary to what some may think the RS pots are not a big seller and Will is not sitting on a pile of Robert's money.

Really, the pots were not very good sellers? In a post by Will on July 17th 2009 he states 210 were sold and were selling fast. Now was that a lie over a year ago or is the statement you made a lie? I have no idea how much Robert Stevens was getting per pot but even if it was say ten dollars, that's over two thousand dollars owed to Robert. Granted it's not a fortune, but as mentioned before, it's the principle. Why should it take over a year for Robert to be paid? Why should it take so long for the contest winners to get their pots, not til September WHEN/IF the addresses are retrieved????
Smoke and mirror excuses, but nobody's buying it, except maybe yourself.
Mary B.
 

greerhw

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Vance, please refute the link I posted on another thread about Will's legal troubles in a PM and I will issue an apology here on Bnut.

keep it green,
Harry
 
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