Will it survive? – Seiju Elm – Novice Root Prune

[AGentleman]

Hi everyone,

I repotted this Seiju Elm today.





I did my best to comb the roots out radially, removing any that were growing downward. I also chopped off the thicker, longer roots. In hindsight, I’m a bit worried I may have taken off too much.






Soil mix:
• Equal parts pumice, scoria (lava rock?), and pine bark
• Plus 1 part zeolite (3:3:3:1 ratio)
I also mixed in some finely chopped sphagnum moss and spread that over the top layer.
Since there weren’t enough roots to anchor the tree securely, I wired it to the pot rather than tying it down as I’ve seen done.



I originally planned to use a large air-pruning grow pot, but decided it was oversized for this tree’s current size.

I’d really appreciate any feedback because I’m about to plant a slightly larger Seiju Elm in the ground and want to avoid killing that one!

Thanks in advance for your time and thoughts!
Greg

 

[LeftHandLuke]

Regarding the root work, I think you stand a good chance of success given the heartiness of an elm. Frankly, you did exactly what I would have done cutting back the roots. You're setting the base up for good horizontal growth early on.

The way you've wired it down is a little risky, though. If you're concerned about having too few roots, you'll want it to be as stable as possible. I wouldn't recommend doing this with a high-value tree. Instability is a liability.

That aside, you're probably in good shape as long as you keep it from moving while the roots set up. When I'm not able to secure with chopsticks or some other wiring method (or don't feel like bothering with it), I've done something similar -- although never with high-value trees. Some might disagree but I also place small stones around the base for some added support until the roots take hold. Good luck!

 

[rockm]

The root prune is fine Tree won’t notice it much. The wiring, however, is not great. Technique isn’t getting you much and wire is not all that effective for drastic bending on deciduous treesWood is to brittle and will snap (keep going with what you’re doing wire-wise and you will find out the hard way). Clip and grow (successive hard pruning followed by growing out resulting back budding) will be much more effective with elm

 

[AGentleman]

Regarding the root work, I think you stand a good chance of success given the heartiness of an elm. Frankly, you did exactly what I would have done cutting back the roots. You're setting the base up for good horizontal growth early on.

The way you've wired it down is a little risky, though. If you're concerned about having too few roots, you'll want it to be as stable as possible. I wouldn't recommend doing this with a high-value tree. Instability is a liability.

That aside, you're probably in good shape as long as you keep it from moving while the roots set up. When I'm not able to secure with chopsticks or some other wiring method (or don't feel like bothering with it), I've done something similar -- although never with high-value trees. Some might disagree but I also place small stones around the base for some added support until the roots take hold. Good luck!

Thanks for your reply—really appreciate the encouragement and advice.

I’m happy to hear the elm stands a good chance, and I’m glad the root work sets it up for a solid horizontal base. Thanks for telling me about stability. I have to learn more about tying trees in. Luckily the tree isn’t high value!

I hadn’t heard of the chopsticks method before. Is it something like this?

Where Where the chopsticks are placed over the roots and wired down to the pot base? I’ll look into it more. [pic from different tree]

In the meantime, I’ll add some heavy stones around the base like you suggested. Seems like a simple way to give it extra support. Thanks again!

 

[Shibui]

Nice Seiju elm. Purchased at Bonsai North West show 2 weeks ago.
Your Seiju could cope with quite a lot more root reduction so I have no doubt it will thrive come some warmer weather.
Your 3 point tie down should keep it plenty stable. Might not be traditional and won't work in solid side containers but a good method for mesh side containers.

 

[AGentleman]

The root prune is fine Tree won’t notice it much. The wiring, however, is not great. Technique isn’t getting you much and wire is not all that effective for drastic bending on deciduous treesWood is to brittle and will snap (keep going with what you’re doing wire-wise and you will find out the hard way). Clip and grow (successive hard pruning followed by growing out resulting back budding) will be much more effective with elm

Thanks very much for your reply — I appreciate your input. I'm relieved to hear the root prune looks okay.

I know my wiring is not so good. I need more practice. Also, I see what you mean about wiring this tree. I was only able to put long gradual curves into it which looks a bit silly. I like your idea of using clip and grow.

However to be fair to myself, the lower wiring was only intended to anchor the tree to the pot (albeit unsuccessfully). And the wiring in the branches was initially supposed to spread the boughs to let sun into every branch. But then I planted the tree on an angle which made that futile anyway as well!
At least I enjoyed doing it!
Thanks for reading my post and your guidance .
Greg

 

[leatherback]

I know my wiring is not so good. I need more practice.

I find that pruning back and wiring the tree before repotting works a lot easier, as the tree is nice and stable rooted. You can then position the branches in the shape you want, and only need to make small adjustments after planting.
(You might have to remove the toplayer of substrate so you can see the main roots to help pick a front and planting angle; After the first repot you will not need to worry, by then you usually have a front and nangle and planting depth sorted out).

 

[AGentleman]

Nice Seiju elm. Purchased at Bonsai North West show 2 weeks ago.
Your Seiju could cope with quite a lot more root reduction so I have no doubt it will thrive come some warmer weather.
Your 3 point tie down should keep it plenty stable. Might not be traditional and won't work in solid side containers but a good method for mesh side containers.

Yep ,that's right. I assumed it was one of yours. A good deal too compared to the $65 I paid for a similar sized Seiju at a nursery in the middle of summer! I'm still learning how to buy trees.
I've potted the pruned roots (through a washer) so hopefully I won't be hunting around for Seiju Elms anytime soon.
Thanks for your reassurance about the trees chances of survival.
Greg
BTW I really enjoyed Bonsai North West show.

 

[AGentleman]

@leatherback
Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. I kind of just flaffed around with the wiring and choosing a front etc.
I really have no idea what I'm doing, but bloody hell it's good fun!

 

[leatherback]

I really have no idea what I'm doing, but bloody hell it's good fun!

practive makes perfect.
Ideally you do not kill your tree. Then everything else is not too interesting; If a branch breaks, grow a new one. Break that again and be carefull the third time.

 

[Dav4]

@leatherback
Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. I kind of just flaffed around with the wiring and choosing a front etc.
I really have no idea what I'm doing, but bloody hell it's good fun!

I guess that's the whole point, right. If it wasn't fun, I sure wouldn't be still doing it after so long .

You started with a good tree and a very forgiving species. As far as growing/shaping this one, clip and grow is your best bet. I will mention that you can successfully wire deciduous tree branches and apply good movement, but it needs to be done on new shoots during the growing season before they've fully lignified/turned woody. The one caveat to wiring during active growth is that the wire will scar the bark if it's left on too long. Typically, depending on species and location, the wire might need to be removed within 4-6 weeks. Good luck!

 

[River's Edge]

Hi everyone,

I repotted this Seiju Elm today.

View attachment 609234

View attachment 609237

I did my best to comb the roots out radially, removing any that were growing downward. I also chopped off the thicker, longer roots. In hindsight, I’m a bit worried I may have taken off too much.

View attachment 609236

View attachment 609238


Soil mix:
• Equal parts pumice, scoria (lava rock?), and pine bark
• Plus 1 part zeolite (3:3:3:1 ratio)
I also mixed in some finely chopped sphagnum moss and spread that over the top layer.
Since there weren’t enough roots to anchor the tree securely, I wired it to the pot rather than tying it down as I’ve seen done.

View attachment 609235

I originally planned to use a large air-pruning grow pot, but decided it was oversized for this tree’s current size.

I’d really appreciate any feedback because I’m about to plant a slightly larger Seiju Elm in the ground and want to avoid killing that one!

Thanks in advance for your time and thoughts!
Greg

The key is the amount of stress you subject the tree to at a time. I would have stuck with the root prune and repot. Using the wire to secure the tree carefully. Not wiring any branches for form or direction at this point. My suggestion would be to wire the elm during the growing season and after recovery from root work. When you do choose to wire seiju elm be prepared to work slowly and carefully with a bit larger size diameter aluminum wire to help prevent breakage and scarring. Another tip is to use two wires with more frequent wraps. ( tighter spacing then with one wire but still a good angle of application between 45 and 60 degrees. When bending ensure that the wire is on the outside of the bend to be created and take your time. They do tend to be trickier to wire. Let the wire do the bending as opposed to putting pressure with your fingers/thumbs. Smaller changes over distance. Take your time!
It is important to wire early in development with seiju, check wire often as they can be very vigorous in their growth habit!

Seiju do not like to dry out, be careful with your pot selection for development.

 

[LeftHandLuke]

I hadn’t heard of the chopsticks method before. Is it something like this?

So, right after I posted that information I started searching for examples and was surprised to find nothing. It's probably out there, but I just wasn't able to locate it. I believe I've seen something similar to your example, although that may be beyond my skill set. Here's an example of how I usually do it. Two sticks, two wires, close to the trunk. Chopsticks may not be commonly used but I always keep a stash of those disposable wooden type that you get at restaurants. They work great.

 

[LeftHandLuke]

Oh, for crying out loud... I could have just sent a picture of one of my own plants! lol...

 

[AGentleman]

@Dav4
Thanks! I’ve sharpened my scissors and am really looking forward to busy snipping on this one. I’ve heard they grow a lot of leaves. Based on your advice (and others), I’ll take that wire off sooner rather than later. Appreciate the tips on using wire to position new shoots. I’ll try it out (I find it hard to use the thin wire on delicate shoots but will keep practicing!)

 

[AGentleman]

@LeftHandLuke
Ha, that’s hilarious—especially after all the effort you went to editing my photo! You even camouflaged my dodgy chopstick drawing and replaced it with your own, complete with a wood texture. Brilliant!

But seriously, I’m really glad you shared the photo of your tree. It cleared up my assumption that the chopsticks were placed directly on the roots. Seeing them positioned over the soil makes much more sense now. Thanks again for taking the time!

—Greg

 

[AGentleman]

@River's Edge
Thanks for the detailed advice, it's really appreciated. The tip about using double wire with tighter spacing at the same angle is especially helpful, and I’m starting to hear more about using thicker wire too. I’m still getting the hang of letting the wire do the work rather than forcing the branch myself… I guess that skill comes with time and practice!

 

[River's Edge]

@River's Edge
Thanks for the detailed advice, it's really appreciated. The tip about using double wire with tighter spacing at the same angle is especially helpful, and I’m starting to hear more about using thicker wire too. I’m still getting the hang of letting the wire do the work rather than forcing the branch myself… I guess that skill comes with time and practice!

Another key aspect that comes with practice is applying the wire so the outside bend of the wire coincides with supporting the spot you wish to bend the branch or trunk. planning the placement and direction is an important first step. Along with ensuring that it is applied to tighten as one creates the movement. So we are back to proper anchoring and directional placement. Sometimes so much attention is paid to other aspects of wiring they get overlooked.
If wishing to move the branch down the first wrap should begin over the top, if wishing to move the branch upward the first wrap should begin underneath. That way the wire tightens and holds the position. assuming it is of the proper size and strength.
Sometimes I mention things for those reading and not necessarily directed at the poster. Just thoughts that add to the topic being discussed.

 

[AGentleman]

Thanks @River's Edge
I've heard some of those things before but I need to hear things repeated to learn them. And, more importantly, to actually remember them while I'm working!
Happy to hear any advice, even if it's not necessarily directed at me.
I have learnt so much from reading through other people's posts.
This forum is amazing.

 

[River's Edge]

Thanks @River's Edge
I've heard some of those things before but I need to hear things repeated to learn them. And, more importantly, to actually remember them while I'm working!
Happy to hear any advice, even if it's not necessarily directed at me.
I have learnt so much from reading through other people's posts.
This forum is amazing.

Spot on, It does help to practise and be intentional when practising. This is where guided practise under the oversight of an experienced person is very helpful. I also find that DVD tutorials when well done are excellent tools to provide repetition of the many detailed steps often involved in basic techniques. In the beginning we tend to remember some of them and get the gist of the overall. Repetition and practise brings uo the performance level and the expected outcome.