Will the "neck" of JBP shoot backbud at all?

bonhe

Masterpiece
Messages
3,210
Reaction score
5,478
Location
Riverside, CA
USDA Zone
11
I post this subject to reply to conversation between Adair M and me in this post https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/jbp-de-candling-all-at-once-or-in-phases.34004/

Adair M stated:
" That section between the base and the first needle is called“the neck”. And long necks suck! You see, there are no buds of any kind in theneck. It will never, ever, under any circumstances backbud from the neck.There’s buds at the tips, and there’s a bud between the needles in each pair,but none in the neck!"

Thụ Thoại (me):
"I actually found the new buds could appear in the neck areaafter I partially decanfled . If you take a look closer, there are many scaleson the neck. Those scales are the buds !"

Adair M:
"There’s scales, but they’re sterile. You can get budding right at the base, but not, say, halfway from the base to the first needle.
I’ve been messing with JBP for over 40 years! And never once has one ever budded from the neck. But I suppose I can wait for a couple months to be enlightened!"


Right after that, I did some pruning to back up my statement. I partially cut of the Spring shoot of JBP right at the center of the neck on 6/12/18
The neck
IMG_7782.jpg

Cut right at the center of the neck
IMG_7783.jpg

Another one
before
IMG_7785.jpg

after
IMG_7786.jpg


Look at them this morning.
It clearly shows the buds are emerging from the scales.
IMG_8208.jpg IMG_8209.jpg IMG_8219.jpg IMG_8220.jpg IMG_8222.jpg

What is lesson here?
Thụ Thoại.
 

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,814
Reaction score
7,417
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
It may be a response to light and temperature.
As our J.b.pines age, we get no candles, just stubs,
and they shoot out needles and later, more stubs..

See if Gustavo can help.
Good Day
Anthony
 

coh

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,000
Reaction score
5,021
Location
Rochester, NY
USDA Zone
6
That is interesting, bonhe! Suggests there are potential buds at each of the scale points, even if there are no needles.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
11,106
Reaction score
23,266
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
I post this subject to reply to conversation between Adair M and me in this post https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/jbp-de-candling-all-at-once-or-in-phases.34004/

Adair M stated:
" That section between the base and the first needle is called“the neck”. And long necks suck! You see, there are no buds of any kind in theneck. It will never, ever, under any circumstances backbud from the neck.There’s buds at the tips, and there’s a bud between the needles in each pair,but none in the neck!"

Thụ Thoại (me):
"I actually found the new buds could appear in the neck areaafter I partially decanfled . If you take a look closer, there are many scaleson the neck. Those scales are the buds !"

Adair M:
"There’s scales, but they’re sterile. You can get budding right at the base, but not, say, halfway from the base to the first needle.
I’ve been messing with JBP for over 40 years! And never once has one ever budded from the neck. But I suppose I can wait for a couple months to be enlightened!"


Right after that, I did some pruning to back up my statement. I partially cut of the Spring shoot of JBP right at the center of the neck on 6/12/18
The neck
View attachment 199539

Cut right at the center of the neck
View attachment 199540

Another one
before
View attachment 199541

after
View attachment 199542


Look at them this morning.
It clearly shows the buds are emerging from the scales.
View attachment 199544 View attachment 199545 View attachment 199546 View attachment 199547 View attachment 199548

What is lesson here?
Thụ Thoại.
That is interesting, binge. After we had our first conservation on the subject, I noticed one of my JBP had two shoots on one bud like you had pictured. So, when I decandled, I cut them both.

After decandling, I’m getting new buds only at the base of the decandled stem. Not father up the stem like you are. Mind you, I didn’t leave as long a stem as you.

It is interesting, but please check your tree and see if you are also getting buds at the base of the decandled stem. And, are you getting them on every stem? Or just the long ones?

(I’ll check my tree that I’ve devandked to see if I have any that are doing what yours is doing.). I have about 5 others I’m doing in the next couple days, too. One I did a week or so ago is showing new buds.

Nevertheless, you now have an internode that extends from the base of the stem to the new buds. I would prefer to have a shorter internode. Starting right at the base of the old shoot.
 

bonhe

Masterpiece
Messages
3,210
Reaction score
5,478
Location
Riverside, CA
USDA Zone
11
That is interesting, bonhe! Suggests there are potential buds at each of the scale points, even if there are no needles.
It is correct Coh.

You always come with something new and interesting. Please let us know how viable those buds are. Thanks.
Thank you. I will update this post asap.
Thụ Thoại
 

bonhe

Masterpiece
Messages
3,210
Reaction score
5,478
Location
Riverside, CA
USDA Zone
11
That is interesting, binge. After we had our first conservation on the subject, I noticed one of my JBP had two shoots on one bud like you had pictured. So, when I decandled, I cut them both.

After decandling, I’m getting new buds only at the base of the decandled stem. Not father up the stem like you are. Mind you, I didn’t leave as long a stem as you.

It is interesting, but please check your tree and see if you are also getting buds at the base of the decandled stem. And, are you getting them on every stem? Or just the long ones?

(I’ll check my tree that I’ve devandked to see if I have any that are doing what yours is doing.). I have about 5 others I’m doing in the next couple days, too. One I did a week or so ago is showing new buds.

Nevertheless, you now have an internode that extends from the base of the stem to the new buds. I would prefer to have a shorter internode. Starting right at the base of the old shoot.
Haha, before we start going deeper into this interesting subject, I want to clarify the terminology to avoid the misunderstanding. These terminologies were created by me during the years working on black pine.
1- Partial decandle: cut the candle or shoot not all the way to its base (means the area between the previous and the current growing seasons)
2- Complete decandle: cut the candle or shoot all the way to its base. I believe you and most of other peoples have been doing this part.

I use either of them depending on the age, the health and the purpose of pruning. #2 is always used in the early summer (around June). # 1 can be used either in the early summer ( around June) or in the end of summer (September).
If the tree is not healthy, young or need to let the branch longer, I use # 2. Otherwise, # 1. You may not be familiar to this way of training, but now you know. I learn this technique from my teacher, Mr. Richard Ota. I hope I am not a parro here! :)

The reason I let the long stubs on this experiment is that I want to show you its scales actually have potential to produce the buds. That is all.
Of course, when I did complete decandle, the new buds will appear at the base.

Thụ Thoại
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
11,106
Reaction score
23,266
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Haha, before we start going deeper into this interesting subject, I want to clarify the terminology to avoid the misunderstanding. These terminologies were created by me during the years working on black pine.
1- Partial decandle: cut the candle or shoot not all the way to its base (means the area between the previous and the current growing seasons)
2- Complete decandle: cut the candle or shoot all the way to its base. I believe you and most of other peoples have been doing this part.

I use either of them depending on the age, the health and the purpose of pruning. #2 is always used in the early summer (around June). # 1 can be used either in the early summer ( around June) or in the end of summer (September).
If the tree is not healthy, young or need to let the branch longer, I use # 2. Otherwise, # 1. You may not be familiar to this way of training, but now you know. I learn this technique from my teacher, Mr. Richard Ota. I hope I am not a parro here! :)

The reason I let the long stubs on this experiment is that I want to show you its scales actually have potential to produce the buds. That is all.
Of course, when I did complete decandle, the new buds will appear at the base.

Thụ Thoại
And I think the “neck” area may be so full of growth hormone right now, it acts differently when it’s still green, than it will once it turns brown. I’ve never seen a backbud happen in the neck area of a two or more year old shoot. Budding at the joint? Yes. Budding from where there used to be needle pairs? Yes, that can happen. Budding in the neck area? Never seen it on old stems.
 
Messages
1,557
Reaction score
2,197
Location
Netherlands
It seems I left a neck (7mm), and found a single bud at it's end. The other neck has dried out after cutting and popped 2 buds at the base.
My jbp is between 2 and 4 years old.
Just my 2 cents.
 

River's Edge

Omono
Messages
1,844
Reaction score
3,843
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
Haha, before we start going deeper into this interesting subject, I want to clarify the terminology to avoid the misunderstanding. These terminologies were created by me during the years working on black pine.
1- Partial decandle: cut the candle or shoot not all the way to its base (means the area between the previous and the current growing seasons)
2- Complete decandle: cut the candle or shoot all the way to its base. I believe you and most of other peoples have been doing this part.

I use either of them depending on the age, the health and the purpose of pruning. #2 is always used in the early summer (around June). # 1 can be used either in the early summer ( around June) or in the end of summer (September).
If the tree is not healthy, young or need to let the branch longer, I use # 2. Otherwise, # 1. You may not be familiar to this way of training, but now you know. I learn this technique from my teacher, Mr. Richard Ota. I hope I am not a parro here! :)

The reason I let the long stubs on this experiment is that I want to show you its scales actually have potential to produce the buds. That is all.
Of course, when I did complete decandle, the new buds will appear at the base.

Thụ Thoại
A good reminder that one should choose a technique or vary the technique for the intended result in a particular instance. Not use one technique throughout the overall tree if not warranted. I believe a good teacher gives the student the proper tools and the skill to determine how and when to use them. Your description of varying the pruning techniques within the same tree to achieve different results reflects that process.
The only difference i would mention is that generally if the tree is not healthy or the branch is weaker then i choose to leave it grow or strengthen.
Decandling and/or candle shortening can provide different internode length and directional changes. As well as taper options on the branch.
Your teacher has also given the student a variety of tools to work on the same tree, just as my teacher. Boon also teaches several JBP pruning techniques and explains the intended result and the appropriate timing. Sometimes students mention only one and the impression is formed that it is the only one! That is not the case! I believe the key is giving the student the ability to choose wisely in a variety of situations.
 

bonhe

Masterpiece
Messages
3,210
Reaction score
5,478
Location
Riverside, CA
USDA Zone
11
Adair M, post: 576107, member: 13405"]And I think the “neck” area may be so full of growth hormone right now, it acts differently when it’s still green, than it will once it turns brown.

It could be, but I think bark photosynthesis is main thing in this fact. As you know, if you cut the branch to the area without the needle, that area will die. In the green neck, evaporation through the bark creates the negative pressure in this area which can let the water come up to from the root system.


Budding in the neck area? Never seen it on old stems.
However, because the bark in the 2 - 3 years old branch (brown color) is not thickening yet, it is still able to have bark photosynthesis, I think. Because of that, I believe the neck in these areas may give the buds if good condition is met. I will do an experiment to prove my hypothesis.
Thụ Thoại
 

bonhe

Masterpiece
Messages
3,210
Reaction score
5,478
Location
Riverside, CA
USDA Zone
11
So, @bonhe, can you rub off strobili (male pollen cones) and then do this?
I think I can do that.
Look at this shoot. Its lower haff used to have strobilus more than one month ago. I just removed all strobilus.
IMG_8245.jpg

You can see it has a lot of buds in every scale
IMG_8247.jpg

Thụ Thoại
 

bonhe

Masterpiece
Messages
3,210
Reaction score
5,478
Location
Riverside, CA
USDA Zone
11
Riversedgebonsai, post: 576198, member: 23025"]A good reminder that one should choose a technique or vary the technique for the intended result in a particular instance. Not use one technique throughout the overall tree if not warranted. I believe a good teacher gives the student the proper tools and the skill to determine how and when to use them. Your description of varying the pruning techniques within the same tree to achieve different results reflects that process.

Your teacher has also given the student a variety of tools to work on the same tree, just as my teacher. Boon also teaches several JBP pruning techniques and explains the intended result and the appropriate timing.
Thanks for sharing your thought. It is exactly what I have been doing with my students for years.

Sometimes students mention only one and the impression is formed that it is the only one!
It is very true! Look at this diagram which I just created. The teacher passed the knowledge down to the student who then can process that knowledge into either a, b or c. It is not only depending on the teacher, but also the ability of the student who can apply that knowledge in the same way or modified way (better or worse) to his or her own task.
Untitled.png


The only difference i would mention is that generally if the tree is not healthy or the branch is weaker then i choose to leave it grow or strengthen.

I totally agree. I do that when I recognize the branch or tree is really weak.

Decandling and/or candle shortening can provide different internode length and directional changes. As well as taper options on the branch.
Absolutely.
Thụ Thoại
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
11,106
Reaction score
23,266
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
There is the “10 day technique” for decandling, and the “all in one day” technique.

The 10 day technique does the weak areas first. Then 10 days later, do the medium strength areas, then ten days after that, do the strongest areas. The reasoning behind this is it gives the weak areas a longer growing season.

The all in one day technique is to leave longer stubs of “neck” on the strong branches, and very little to no stub on the weak candles. Medium strength get stubs somewhere in between. The reasoning behind this techniques is there is still some auxin the the stubs. Leaving more stem in the strong area will leave more Auxen, which will slow them down, but the weak areas are allowed to begin to grow new summer candles.

I generally do the “all in one day”, as it would be too easy for me to forget doing the next session!

But, knowing both methods can be helpful, by combining the two

None of this is to be confused with spring “candle breaking”. On areas that are really strong, you might want to do some candle shortening by breaking the candle at whatever point as long as you leave some new new needles. Later, decandle I the summer.
 

bonhe

Masterpiece
Messages
3,210
Reaction score
5,478
Location
Riverside, CA
USDA Zone
11
Adair M, post: 576548, member: 13405"]There is the “10 day technique” for decandling, and the “all in one day” technique.
Oh, thanks for bring this one up.

The 10 day technique does the weak areas first. Then 10 days later, do the medium strength areas, then ten days after that, do the strongest areas.
I use this method only for the big pine or juniper. Like I said in other thread, I use this to buy the time to take care the smaller pines at that time. It means no waist time for whoever has a lot of pine.

The reasoning behind this is it gives the weak areas a longer growing season.
Hah, I don't agree with you for this explanation. Why? Let me remind you about this fact:
Changes in photosynthesis generally parallel seasonal changes in ambient air temperature. It means photosynthesis decreases to nil in autumn and then commences again in spring when the air temperature starts going up. Many studies have shown that the chlorophyll concentration in needles decreases in response to low temperature or short day conditions (Ottander et al. 1995, Vogg et al. 1998). It means chlorophyll concentration in needles is higher in summer and lower in winter. Those chlorophyll concentration is correlated to the photosynthesis.
So, when you decandle on the weak area first, actually you terminated its photosynthesis early in the season when its photosynthesis supposes to be in the peak at that time. If you really want to have the weak area has longer growing season, you should decandle it later in the season. and that what we do partial decandle in September for the weak tree or the young seedlings. We want to do that way to help the tree gains plenty of nutrition via photosynthesis. The mistake I see in this forum and other forums is that everyone talks about decandling in June (near the peak of photosynthesis season) without clearly explanation the benefit and side affects of that act. For me, when I do something on the tree, I need to understand why I do that. If we don't understand, then the newbies of black pine will just follow others' instruction to do decandling on their 2 - 5 years old seedlings in June.

You can say you do the weak area first, so that the buds in this area will emerge first. That I agree. But if you calculate it in the long run, I don't think the weak area will gain more energy than the strong area because when summer shoots is mature, it is already when photosynthesis is reducing due to air temperature.

The all in one day technique is to leave longer stubs of “neck” on the strong branches, and very little to no stub on the weak candles. Medium strength get stubs somewhere in between. The reasoning behind this techniques is there is still some auxin the the stubs. Leaving more stem in the strong area will leave more Auxen, which will slow them down, but the weak areas are allowed to begin to grow new summer candles.
I agree

None of this is to be confused with spring “candle breaking”. On areas that are really strong, you might want to do some candle shortening by breaking the candle at whatever point
I rarely do this

as long as you leave some new new needles.
Can you explain what the reason to leave some new needles? Thank you
Thụ Thoại
 

bonhe

Masterpiece
Messages
3,210
Reaction score
5,478
Location
Riverside, CA
USDA Zone
11
I did this for Osoung :)
The lower half of this spring shoot used to have strobilus
IMG_8254.jpg

I partially decandled them this morning. Let see what happens in the next few weeks.
IMG_8256.jpg IMG_8257.jpg

Thụ Thoại
 
Messages
1,557
Reaction score
2,197
Location
Netherlands
New growth tends to produce more auxins, so by leaving parts of it, you support both shoot growth and root growth.
Auxins are generally produced in dividing cells at the green growing points of plants, then travels down to where it is needed.

Cutting shoots, candles or buds in all cases decreases auxin production and reduces cell elongation (stretchy growth). Cutting weak growth first, means it will 'demand' auxins from other areas. This results in more balanced growth because the stronger locations need to donate resources. The same thing happens when cutting everything at once, but all production sites are damaged that way. Eventually, that will take a toll on the root growth.
Photo activity only plays a 20% part in that, i think. Hormones drive everything.

I dare to hypothesise that cutting everything at once produces more buds per tree than doing it in stages. But with stages it is easier to steer: cytokins that induce branching are blocked by auxin, when the auxin is gone, cytokin will take the upper hand. Cutting early means that there's a higher chance of branching in that location. More branches equals stronger growth. Stronger growth means stronger branch, the circle is complete.

More time to grow? Not entirely.. I think it's more like "Higher chance and more time to be influenced by plant processes caused by our techniques".

If this doesn't make any sense, I'll see if i can link some literature.
 

0soyoung

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,627
Reaction score
8,633
Location
Anacortes, WA (AHS heat zone 1)
USDA Zone
8b
Changes in photosynthesis generally parallel seasonal changes in ambient air temperature. It means photosynthesis decreases to nil in autumn and then commences again in spring when the air temperature starts going up. Many studies have shown that the chlorophyll concentration in needles decreases in response to low temperature or short day conditions (Ottander et al. 1995, Vogg et al. 1998). It means chlorophyll concentration in needles is higher in summer and lower in winter. Those chlorophyll concentration is correlated to the photosynthesis.
Many 'alpine' species don't dismantle the chlorophyl but instead increase the amount of xanthophylls which make the yellow color. Xanthophylls divert photons away from the cholorophyll preventing damage to the photosynthetic apparatus in winter. In varieties that have yellow needles (e.g., lodgepole 'Chief Joseph', EWP 'Louis', JBP 'Ogon') one will note that in shade the xanthophylls are removed and the needles are green; in full sun the needles are a vibrant yellow (as opposed to the dull yellow characteristic of photocenters being dismantled).

Still, photosythesis slows to a crawl, as you said, @bonhe, when temps drop below 5C or so.

Other species use anthocyanins which produce red colors, to shade the photocenters during winter. Many junipers do this as does cryptomeria 'Elegans', and others.
 

Similar threads


Top Bottom