Chris Johnston
Omono
I'm sorry, you responded while I was editing my post. And I don't wear panties.
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Windswept five needle pine
- Thread starter Bonsai Nut
- Start date
OK OK OK - Chris and Will! Let's move on please.
I would love to hear what both of you would do with this tree. Undoubtedly it would not be the same as I would do (as I posted). I appreciate the talent and knowledge both of you possess but want to hear or see about this tree.
I would love to hear what both of you would do with this tree. Undoubtedly it would not be the same as I would do (as I posted). I appreciate the talent and knowledge both of you possess but want to hear or see about this tree.
Chris Johnston
Omono
Okay, fair enough, Graydon. As has been pointed out to me in another chat, and as I have followed with my collected trees, one year is most likely a death knell for this tree. But after it has been properly encultivated, I would do much as you suggested. Wire every branch. Make the foliage pads tight but not too close together. Bring the crowns down with wire. And find a more appropriate pot, as it seems to be potted too high in this one. And I didn't say wabi/sabi once!
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
The problem I see with this tree is in the eye of the beholders. Everybody is trying to pigeon-hole the tree into one or more of the classic styles. It is clear it does not fit 100% into any of them, and any effort to make it do so will most likely make the tree less than it is. It needs some refinement but it needs to be refined from the view point of its fundamental natural beauty and how this can be enhanced, developed and accented to bring out the nature this tree now possesses.
In an article I wrote recently we discussed the problems with American bonsai. Perhaps right here is an example of one of those problems. Americans tend to think within the confines of some predetermined parameters and if something does not quite fit, the idea that it is perfectly acceptable as it is tends to be a concept that is not even considered. We choose instead to make the tree into something contrived, forced and squeezed into a proper box that we can understand and be comfortable with. We can communicate an idea that it is wind swept, or Literati, or any number of other classic styles but we have difficulty suggesting that the tree is what it is and should be developed along the lines it now has looking for the best most pleasing and expressive solutions our imaginations can come up with. In a sense this tree is one that should be listened to. It could be an excellent bonsai if someone is courageous enough to approach it without thinking they have to default to the books and ruin the tree doing it.
In an article I wrote recently we discussed the problems with American bonsai. Perhaps right here is an example of one of those problems. Americans tend to think within the confines of some predetermined parameters and if something does not quite fit, the idea that it is perfectly acceptable as it is tends to be a concept that is not even considered. We choose instead to make the tree into something contrived, forced and squeezed into a proper box that we can understand and be comfortable with. We can communicate an idea that it is wind swept, or Literati, or any number of other classic styles but we have difficulty suggesting that the tree is what it is and should be developed along the lines it now has looking for the best most pleasing and expressive solutions our imaginations can come up with. In a sense this tree is one that should be listened to. It could be an excellent bonsai if someone is courageous enough to approach it without thinking they have to default to the books and ruin the tree doing it.
Anonymous User
Banned
Vance,
I can't argue with that. Excellent point.
Will
I can't argue with that. Excellent point.
Will
Chris Johnston
Omono
Honestly, I don't see how that article or philosophy has anything to do with the tree at hand or my suggestions as to what I would do with it. I still have not heard Will mention anything he would do with the tree. As it is it is a little disordered, but could be made far more beautiful without changing much or removing a single branch. I think that is pretty much what you just called for.
Anonymous User
Banned
Chris,
I said eariler that very little would need to be done to this tree in order to get a good bonsai. I said that in response to your comment that it needs a "complete restyle." I stand by that statement and agree with Graydon's apprasial of what needs to be done.
Your remark "thanks for the lesson" turned me off of making any further comments as to styling this tree, frankly I don't have the patience for your attitude and will ignore such in the future.
Will
...As to a complete restyle, that is debatable, I think a few minor changes would bring out a very nice bonsai indeed, but I wouldn't want to give "lessons" here....
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Chris Johnston
Omono
Nothing I have said in these quotes is mutually exclusive. I can do a complete restyle on this tree without removing a single branch. I also mentioned that the old-fashioned adherence to rules and the relationship between American Bonsai, Japanese, and European. I could do this and mentioned how I would do it. All we heard from you, Will, was wait and virtuals.
What got to me was that same sense of superiority that pervades your posts everywhere. Yet we don't see many trees. Let's see some.
Anonymous User
Banned
Chris, I am sorry that you feel so challenged by me. I have posted my trees and accents on many forums and in many published articles both on-line and in print, it doesn't take much to find them. I have seen your four trees on your web page, I think there is four, didn't you lose a couple?
Once again, when faced with a challenge (real or imagined) you resort to attacking the author, their bonsai, their job, marital status, criminal background, their high school GPA, anything but the information concerning bonsai as related in the post. Do me a favor, stick to discussing bonsai and save the personal attacks for someone who can be hurt by them. And as to this "sense of superiority" please don't confuse confidence with arrogance.
As to my virtuals, that you have attacked twice now on this forum, they are a good way of expressing ideas, better than simply stating vaguely, " I can do a complete restyle on this tree without removing a single branch" don't tell me, show me.
Even though I plainly stated above that I would need some time to observe this tree and do some virts before making a decision, I made a couple quick virts here, just to show that actions are better than words.
I reserve the right to change my mind about the validity of these virts. (Note: little if any serious bending of the trunks was explored since the thickness or flexibility of these trunks is unknown)
1) Removing lower branches.
2) Removing lower branches, raising lower trunk and shortening lower apex.
3) Removing lower branches, raising lower trunk, shortening lower apex, and Jinning lower trunk.
Just three of many possibilities, the best decision wouild be made while observing the tree live. Now what was it that you said you'd do again Chris?
Will Heath
Attachments
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Chris Johnston
Omono
as I said, virts are easier than trees. And these are major changes.
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John Hill
Mame
Thanks for the opinions on this tree. Interesting directions and all viable results. Some would reap benefits sooner than others.
I suppose I need to breakdown and get photoshop for mac. I see a tree in my head but can't get there with what I have (vectorworks - cad type program).
I understand virts are easier than real trees. I also understand some of the options are major changes - some life threatening to the tree. I think for the benefit of discussing trees we will never have the chance to own or see in person it's at least discussing something other than birthdays and such. I hate to see people getting agitated over trivial things such as this tree. Life's too short.
I suppose I need to breakdown and get photoshop for mac. I see a tree in my head but can't get there with what I have (vectorworks - cad type program).
I understand virts are easier than real trees. I also understand some of the options are major changes - some life threatening to the tree. I think for the benefit of discussing trees we will never have the chance to own or see in person it's at least discussing something other than birthdays and such. I hate to see people getting agitated over trivial things such as this tree. Life's too short.
Chris Johnston
Omono
Well I couldn't agree more, graydon. But remember that birthdays are part of a community that cares about each other. Of course we could do the birthday thing to the exclusion of bonsai, which would be wrong. But life is far too short not to celebrate each other as well as trees.
John Hill
Mame
Yes I agree totally Graydon. Sometimes virts are harder then real trees
In this case I can't actually get the tree to look like I vision. I think the pads should maybe be more on a horizontal plane but didn't want to spend to much time with it. In this case I think I could work the tree easier then a virt. I guess I need to practice my drawing skills if you really want a laugh
I really like this tree as is just needs some detailing and re pot and this tree will be a fine image.
A Friend in bonsai
John
Anonymous User
Banned
It is true that without the tree in front of us, all we can do is discuss possible design options based on a two-dimensional photograph. I have yet to see a viable alternative to this process on-line. Virtuals give us the valuable opportunity to visually express our thoughts to others on-line, this would indeed be more difficult without this tool.
As I mentioned before, it does take a least a decent eye for visual design in order to do a virtual and there are just as many bad virts floating around as there are bad bonsai. I personally have seen branches "magically" added to trees in virts as well as design options that would outright kill a tree. One needs not only an eye for design to create a viable virt, but also horticultural knowledge.
I first became fascinated with virtuals when I had a tree in a "Ask The Master" forum a couple years back where Walter Pall gave me some excellent advice and Uwe presented a virtual for me. A year later that tree took third place at my club show and last year it took first. Amazingly, an air layer from that tree designed in a cascade style, took second. Both designed around virtuals.
That being said, nothing is more valuable than a trained eye and I have found that my informal teacher/student relationship with Vance Wood has done wonders for my eye as well as my bonsai.
Will
As I mentioned before, it does take a least a decent eye for visual design in order to do a virtual and there are just as many bad virts floating around as there are bad bonsai. I personally have seen branches "magically" added to trees in virts as well as design options that would outright kill a tree. One needs not only an eye for design to create a viable virt, but also horticultural knowledge.
I first became fascinated with virtuals when I had a tree in a "Ask The Master" forum a couple years back where Walter Pall gave me some excellent advice and Uwe presented a virtual for me. A year later that tree took third place at my club show and last year it took first. Amazingly, an air layer from that tree designed in a cascade style, took second. Both designed around virtuals.
That being said, nothing is more valuable than a trained eye and I have found that my informal teacher/student relationship with Vance Wood has done wonders for my eye as well as my bonsai.
Will
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