Winged Bark Zelkova?! Or am I a wing nut?

hemmy

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I bought this out of pure curiosity. The tag and seller claim it is a “zelkova elm” but it has wings! Has anyone ever heard of that? I found nothing on the web except a Harvard 1947 pub listing Zelkova under a wing bark category. It looks like a cutting and has poor nebari.

I’m dubious. It must be a Ulmus alata or thomasii? Thoughts?

FE4A3031-BC87-4EAD-9A3C-E6F700B7D874.jpeg
 

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My Eastern winged elms and cedar elms have wings on the branches... but not on the trunk. This does not look like either of those species to me...

I don't know what it is :)
 

leatherback

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Guess.. wait for some leaves and you know whether elm or zelkova..
 

hemmy

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I think Ulmus, not Zelkova. Leaves appear to be double serrate like Ulmus. But species? None of the branches have wings, only the trunk has some cork ridges. I’m thinking Ulmus davidana var japonica, sometimes called Japanese elms, which would explain the original label that read “Zelkova elm”
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AlainK

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The Dutch elm disease, which was first detected in the Netherlands at the beginning of the 20th century has probably an Asian origin.

In the mid-20th century, the disease had spread so much in Europe and elsewhere that importing elms was forbidden.

Hence, some bonsai importers called Ulmus parvifolia "Zelkova" to by-pass the ban, addidng "Nire" which is in fact the Japanese for "elm". There are three species of elm native to Japan (links in French, but the photos are interesting):

Yours looks a bit like Harunire, Ulmus Davidiana.

Check "" on Google translate, you can hear the pronunciation too: https://translate.google.fr/?hl=fr#ja/en/楡

Once again, Zelkova and Ulmus ("Nire") are two different species from the same genus, that also includes Celtis for instance.

 
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discusmike

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I have seen a true rough bark zelcova pre bonssi for sale in a local nursery but they were very large specimens,not sure how the leaves n nodes reduce
 

BrianBay9

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You didn't pick this up at the Mammoth sale at Lake Merrit a couple of weekends ago, did you? I bought one there, similarly labelled. We may have visited the same vendor. I asked him about it and he acted like it was the most normal thing in the world - surprised that I hadn't heard of it before. I didn't much care what the label was since I liked the tree.
 

AlainK

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I didn't much care what the label was since I liked the tree.

I would have definitely done the same!

Yet I still think it can be useful, if not necessary, to get to know what species or cultivar you buy for the requirements can be very different in terms of climate, soil, resistance to diseases, etc.
 

hemmy

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You didn't pick this up at the Mammoth sale at Lake Merrit a couple of weekends ago, did you? I bought one there, similarly labelled. We may have visited the same vendor. I asked him about it and he acted like it was the most normal thing in the world - surprised that I hadn't heard of it before. I didn't much care what the label was since I liked the tree.

Nope, this year’s Shohin Convention in Santa Nella
 

BrianBay9

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It probably was the same vendor. I saw him at the Shohin Convention too, but didn't see these trees.
 

milehigh_7

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I have seen a true rough bark zelcova pre bonssi for sale in a local nursery but they were very large specimens,not sure how the leaves n nodes reduce

I have my doubts. I looked at every accepted Zelkova not long ago and none are rough bark.
 

milehigh_7

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Remember all elms will hybridize fairly easily. The only challenge comes with Spring flowering on most and Fall flowering on others such as Ulmus P. However, this can be overcome by storing the pollen and pollinating manually. What's more, they throw out sports like no other. Hokkaido is a sport from Ulmus P and in turn seiju and yatsubusa are in turn sports from Hokkaido.
 

hemmy

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There wasn’t much action after the first flush, but I’m finally getting a second push. I haven’t touched it since the roots were so sparse. The bottom chopped piece is sending out a vigorous leader with wings. I saw some cedar elms last weekend and while they had very similar leaves (coarse, thick cuticles) the bark was very different. I still believe this is Ulmus davidana var japonica.
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