Winter? What Winter?

Orion_metalhead

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Check weekly, water when not frozen or place snow on frozen soil when available until spring...

So can I use crushed ice in place of snow to get the moisture back into the root mass? I'm just concerned with the lack of moisture in the bottom of the pot because that's where there are a significant amount of roots. at the moment.
 

Dav4

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So can I use crushed ice in place of snow to get the moisture back into the root mass? I'm just concerned with the lack of moisture in the bottom of the pot because that's where there are a significant amount of roots. at the moment.
Ice cubes would work.
 

Forsoothe!

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Species matter. Lots of roots aren't supposed to freeze solid. It's hard to generalize here because the list of species we bonsai is a mile long, and each variety has its own set of parameters, but generally speaking, fleshy roots don't freeze well, but tough, fibrous roots like Pines do fine. The parts above ground dry out for winter and can stand freezing just fine while the root zone just gets down to 0° C, but when they get down to ~6°C that's a different story. The ground here in 6b in the city where the wind doesn't affect the ground the way it does on open farmland, rarely gets much below ~-1°C below the top ~3" crust. Your pots will be whatever the air temp is and that varies all over the map. And that's not the same kind of condition as the upper roots getting down to ~0°C and staying there for a few months. In my garden over winter, pots sitting on a lightly mulched surface and mulched to the base of the tree (after it settles down from ~3" higher) probably doesn't get much lower than ~1 or 2°C. And they stay there without very much change for 4 or 5 months. They don't get any water other than what seeps in from rain or snow from late October to April something and they're never too dry when I fetch them. Too dry over winter for deciduous is not any better than too wet, except maybe dry pots don't break. The pots do become available for some other, living tree next spring... I'm going to go out on a limb and say that any tree that isn't hardy in zone 3, other than Pines, shouldn't allow the pot to freeze. Or, any tree that doesn't have heavy resin-type, pine-like sap shouldn't have frozen roots. And, probably more important: the number of freeze-thaw cycles a tree can take over winter probably counts just as much, with a high number being stressful for the tree.

Not only that, but I leave all my trees out in full sun over winter, including everything that needs partial shade in summer. When trees start to leaf out in shade it is vary hard to introduce them to the sun without frying the leaf edges. I never got it right when the trees were over-wintered in a garage, or behind a building, or anywhere except in full sun. It never seems to get too hot until I've had plenty of time to take the Japanese maples, et al to where they will spend the hot summer months, but could never get it right the other way. Another guess/generality: any tree that isn't hardy in 2 zones north of yours (whomever) shouldn't have roots subjected to the lowest air temps of that nothern zone.
 
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Orion_metalhead

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These are acer palmatum. Acer negundo, and acer rubrum in these pots. All are plenty cold hardy in area. All saplings.

Will follow Dav4's advice. Thanks for the comment and information.
 

RobertB

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Looks like winter is coming to Alabama next week. Our first dip to 27 degrees. time to hall in all the tropicals and succulents and 1 yr seedlings. not to mention all the plants ive already started repotting.
 

JudyB

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Well at last it's going to be winter here. We still have the harsh part of our winter upcoming so it's a good thing that it decided to land on us now. I have a chinese quince that was starting to push, (I never worry about that one though) so much more of the 50's we'd been having would be unwelcome here. Always so strange to hear of people repotting in the warm areas, when the bad part of winter is still in front of us here.
 

rockm

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Ok, I have a question. I am reading that it's ok for hardy trees to your area to freeze in their pots over winter, but they also can't go dry.

My trees have frozen but the bottom of the soil is dry...

Should I water the trees thoroughly? Should I slip the tree out of the pot and just water the bottom since the frozen top part of the tree has moisture, just frozen? I have them somewhat insulated in the shed now, surrounded by leaves then packed into two layers of coconut coir baskets.

Thoughts?

Read this...Dry roots are dead roots. Water outside of roots acts as an insulator--which is why citrus growers in Fla. spray their orange trees and orange crop with water in the orchard when witner freezes threaten...
https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/frzekill.htm
 

Orion_metalhead

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Read this...Dry roots are dead roots. Water outside of roots acts as an insulator--which is why citrus growers in Fla. spray their orange trees and orange crop with water in the orchard when witner freezes threaten...
https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/frzekill.htm

Singlehandedly the best reading on wintering trees I've seen. Thank you. This answers my questions pretty much conclusively.
 

SU2

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I too was thinking you have some beasts...if your weather gets bipolar and has a hard turn. Will you do a bonsai two step? Or handle it another way? That's just crazy...but seen another guy from Texas...mentioning repotting by the leaves opening. I would be half tempted to forgo a repot for fear winter rears again. But that's just me.
Yeah I'd be nervous-as-hell about doing *anything* that can trigger growth right now, I mean a re-pot, a styling / defoliation / pruning / etc can all be growth-catalysts, for Ex my established Crapes are dormant and bald, whereas some crapes I collected a couple months ago are still nice & green and in (slow) vegetative mode.


The biggest issue for me with all this is that there was NOT time for my dormant spray treatment this year :mad:. I sprayed with dormant oil on December 22nd and had to pull the remaining leaves off the trees to do so. Three weeks later and several trees are already budding out - I usually wait four weeks before spraying with lime sulfur or Bordeaux mix at dormant concentrations. So a few trees aren’t going to get it this year and I think that I’ll spray the rest this weekend in case more start moving over the next couple of weeks. In a climate like Houston’s, nothing is every TRULY dormant and you have to be on top of the dormant spray application by getting right on the horticultural oil as soon as the leave are gone to make sure that you have enough time for the fungal spray on the back end. Sometimes you don’t get four weeks. I’ll spray the maples that are budding out with Cleary’s and forgo the lime sulfur spray. Cleary’s is effective against anthracnose. I’ve never had fungal issues with bald cypress - just rust mites.

- S

I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but are you getting any bud-break on specimen that were just left to their own devices? As I'd said earlier in this post, I have crapes that are like your Maple, they're growing vegetatively right now but it's because I chopped/collected them some months ago and they basically 'have to' do that to survive, certainly not optimal - my established crapes are bald/dormant, my BC's are almost-fully dormant, guess I'm wondering - and fearing a 'yes' - about whether you're getting any growth in Jan on established/un-touched materials?

If you happen to know, when's the best time to collect Maples? I'm trying to find a hard answer on this, because I've found that my friend's area that has BC's also has Maples, so - if I"m lucky enough that dates line-up, I'll be able to collect some BC's **and** some Maples!!!!

Good luck handling any&all of that supple growth as it develops cuticles / hardens, I know I've got a handful of specimen right now that, were it to be below 40deg in an evening, I'd definitely be loading the patio up in fear of the new growth getting hurt! I'm incredibly eager for BC-season to begin, last year I started Feb 2nd and that first one made it fine, though there were nights that I had to bring it in....I WAS going to wait until even later, maybe mid-feb, before beginning this year- upon reading your thread, now I'm wondering if I should begin tomorrow!!!!
 

SU2

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I think Zach was joking ;) (oh jeebus I hope so...just reminded me I've never checked-out the non-bonsai sub(s) here, got excited but then restrained myself for fear I'll make more friends than enemies by posting non-bonsai thoughts :p

Climate change is real though, at least that's BY FAR the safest bet a non-partisan observer would make. Either side could be lying, though I'll go w/ the scientific community over the fossil-fuel industry when it comes to conclusions here, thank you very much! But, so far as I understand it, it's no longer a "who do we believe?" situation, it's a situation wherein there's enough real-world things to cite that point to the climate 'leaving normal/homeostatic conditions' whether it's ocean acidification or the melting ice-caps (and the 2-fold effect that their melting has on the planet) OMG I think this is my first real global-warming post, gosh I hope zach was joking, if not I'd be incredibly eager to hear why not (being agnostic is one thing, but disbelief is another IMO - sorry I didn't mean to derail into other topics but think this one is particularly important to tree-lovers like us ;D )
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@markyscott and @Carol 83 - Brace yourselves. By Tuesday 1/21/19 there is the ''polar vortex'' coming south for a visit. We are due to have -2 F (-18 C for Alain K) over the evening of 1/21-1/22. Here we have had a cold but above 10 F (-12 C ) November, followed by December and January that have been within a few degrees of freezing at the coldest at night and 15 to 20 degrees above freezing during the day. Fortunately our native material probably has not had sufficient chill hours to wake up easy yet, though soon that requirement will be met. I'm worried because being so warm, things outdoors might not be fully cold acclimated. Scott, I hope you will be able to get things under cover if the freeze extends as far south as you are. Its going to be bad. I'm also supposed to get close to one foot of snow too, about 0.3 meters for Alain. Carol, you have the snow coming too.


... I'm going to go out on a limb and say that any tree that isn't hardy in zone 3, other than Pines, shouldn't allow the pot to freeze. Or, any tree that doesn't have heavy resin-type, pine-like sap shouldn't have frozen roots. And, probably more important: the number of freeze-thaw cycles a tree can take over winter probably counts just as much, with a high number being stressful for the tree.

What you actually do, that is bury your pots in the garden, and just leave the tops of the trees exposed is a perfectly good way to winter trees , I did it for many years. Don't change what your are doing.

But your reasoning about whether roots freeze in the ground or not, and why your system works is flawed. Check your local building codes. How deep are water mains required to be buried? Just shy of THAT DEPTH is the depth to which the ground has documented history of freezing to. Every municipality has good data on this, and they can check it easily. The cemeteries will report the depth of the freeze line in the ground as they dig graves over the course of the winter. Here in the Chicago-Milwaukee area the ground can and occasionally does freeze to a depth over 4 feet deep, therefore our water mains must be 5 feet or 60 inches or 1.60 meters deep in order to remain unfrozen all winter. From the frost line in the soil to the soil surface the temperature of the soil will be a gradient, from 32 at the frost line down to what ever the air temperature is up at the surface of the soil if it is free of snow, otherwise the gradient continues to the snow's surface. In my area tree roots in the 5 foot zone where freezing is possible, they freeze every winter. Most trees have the majority of their feeder roots in the surface 6 inches of soil. If it is -10 F, here and there is no snow cover, it is very possible the upper inch of soil is right around -10 F (-23 C ). Trees survive this no problem, deciduous, or coniferous, if they are native to the region, they can take. True the deeper you go the warmer it gets and the more stable the temperature gets, but the top few inches of soil can and does get pretty damn cold. So your reasoning for why this works is nonsense, the real answer is that temperate climate trees have the ability to adapt and survive this on a yearly basis. The same mechanisms that protect the exposed buds, twigs and branches protect the roots.

Not trying to give you a hard time, just thought I'd try to get you out of that rabbit hole of thinking about mechanisms. It could lead to bad results.
 

Cajunrider

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Polar Vortex!!!!

First thing first: I'm gathering all the necessary ingredient for a large pot of gumbo. Cajuns can't function well in weather under 55 deg F (13 C for AlainK) without gumbo.
Then I'll bring in my recently collected live oaks and VA pine because their roots have been compromised.
Everything else will stay put wherever they've been.
 
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