Wire to thicken trunks

Forsoothe!

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I think this question might be modified to, "Are trunks fattened more or quicker by wrapping with wire, or by just growing-on in good conditions like sinking the pot in the ground for a couple years?" I think the answer just pops out at you.
 

Shibui

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I'd rather have good bonsai. I don't care if one method gives quicker results if those results are crap. I want a method that gives a good proportion of great looking trunks in the least time possible. Note that great trunks is a priority over least time. I'm always happy to wait for better results.
 

Adair M

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I think this question might be modified to, "Are trunks fattened more or quicker by wrapping with wire, or by just growing-on in good conditions like sinking the pot in the ground for a couple years?" I think the answer just pops out at you.
I’m sure when you typed this you meant planting in the ground a few years, not “sinking the pot” in the ground. Burying a potted tree in the ground in its pot won’t do much for the tree.
 

Lazylightningny

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Search the site for tourniquet layering.

I have used this technique on one of my birch trees, not to thicken the base, but to layer some new roots. However as a consequence, the trunk did thicken quite a bit at the tourniquet.
 

peterbone

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Here's the picture I posted on r/bonsai that sparked this thread. A Zelkova on eBay. The comment on eBay said that the wire was almost healed over. Looks hideous to me and I'd be surprised if it survives.
 

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Mame-Mo

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Here's the picture I posted on r/bonsai that sparked this thread. A Zelkova on eBay. The comment on eBay said that the wire was almost healed over. Looks hideous to me and I'd be surprised if it survives.
Although that is the photo that sparked the thread, this is the photo that sparked my interest in asking the question ( https://flic.kr/p/2dyRLnG ). According to the poster these larches were wire in and they do not look bad in my estimation (at least not the ones to the far right).
 

rockm

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Although that is the photo that sparked the thread, this is the photo that sparked my interest in asking the question ( https://flic.kr/p/2dyRLnG ). According to the poster these larches were wire in and they do not look bad in my estimation (at least not the ones to the far right).
Those trees, even the ones on the far right, stick out like sore thumbs to anyone who has been doing this for a while. They pretty much scream--"We've been weirdly manipulated"

The cork screw turns are typical on mass-produced mallsai coming from China. I used to have a catlin elm produced exactly the same way--wire left embedded in the trunk. It had almost the exact same twists and turns as these larch have (and always will have). If mallsai is the look you want to replicate, then this is the technique for you.

And FWIW, if you decide down the road that the tree you've left the wire on needs a drastic redesign (and you will, since this look is less and less appealing the more experience you get), you will have to remember the wire when you chop or drastically reduce the trunk in a few years. Nothing like trying to saw through a few strands of 4mm wire to ruin your tools...
 

Vance Wood

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The best way, or rather, the fastest way to fatten any trunk is to plant it in the ground, and let a sacrifice grow tall.

If you want taper, the sacrifice trunk will have to be cut, and a new leader be allowed to grow tall. This leader will subsequently be cut, and a new one trained to take its place.

Of course, each time the sacrifice trunk is cut, there is a scar. Scars heal best when there is a strong apical leader growing above it.

The key to success is managing the growing, the cutting back, and not letting the sacrifice branch get so big that the scars won’t cover over.

And time.

By the way, anyone can post bad techniques on this or any other website. And, they can post good techniques. It’s difficult to separate the wheat from the chaffe.

By my stating that you don’t find any good examples, or corroboration, i’m giving you a clue that you’ve stumbled upon misinformation.

OK, devils advocate strikes again. In essence what Adair is saying is absolutely true on all things covered. However; many techniques are species specific and will not translate to other species well. So; you have to research what it is you want to do and do it. It is my understanding that the Japanese are known to spiral wire around a trunk and allow it to be over-grown, forcing the tree to grow over it and adapt. It is my understanding that this is a technique used on Japanese Black Pine if it is used at all and you will not encounter it in every source you look into. To the beginner this stuff sounds wonderful and a welcome short cut to fat trunks and so forth. The truth is if you do not know or understand what you are doing this could be disastrous leaving you with wasted time and a dead tree. It is true that the quickest way to accomplish what you desire is to plant the tree in the ground. With Junipers this is the easiest way, and with Pines this will produce fat trunks but the bark will not be so good. So-- no matter what you do it depends on your knowledge, experience and skill----not to mention a degree of luck.

The little Mugo shown below (8" tall) is the product of this accidentally and by neglect happening quite a number of years ago. You cannot now see the wire but much of it is still present. You decide.

The truth is, there is no substitute for trees that already posses large trunks, even if the tree is five foot tall and the bonsai your desire is only two feet tall. This is of course the secret of growing bonsai from nursery trees. The only two alternitives are Yamadori which are expensive, difficult to maintain, and impossible to acquire without permits and other hoops to jump through. The only other alternitive is to purchase pre-bonsai from a professional grower that will be glad to charge you the cost of a Chevrolet. This is of course takes us back to your original post. Grow it your self. Do your self a favor; start with larger trees not pencils and straws, start with nursery trees with substantial trunks. The secret is to cut down a nursery tree into a smaller bonsai. The Mugo below starter in a one gallon container it is not about 7-8"s tall. This kind of reduction can be done much quicker than trying to grow a stick into a quality bonsai.

ShohinMugo copy 3.jpg
 
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Forsoothe!

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Here's the picture I posted on r/bonsai that sparked this thread. A Zelkova on eBay. The comment on eBay said that the wire was almost healed over. Looks hideous to me and I'd be surprised if it survives.
U G L Y
 

Mame-Mo

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[

Those trees, even the ones on the far right, stick out like sore thumbs to anyone who has been doing this for a while. They pretty much scream--"We've been weirdly manipulated"

The cork screw turns are typical on mass-produced mallsai coming from China. I used to have a catlin elm produced exactly the same way--wire left embedded in the trunk. It had almost the exact same twists and turns as these larch have (and always will have). If mallsai is the look you want to replicate, then this is the technique for you.

And FWIW, if you decide down the road that the tree you've left the wire on needs a drastic redesign (and you will, since this look is less and less appealing the more experience you get), you will have to remember the wire when you chop or drastically reduce the trunk in a few years. Nothing like trying to saw through a few strands of 4mm wire to ruin your tools...
That's fair. While I don't think they're the most striking trees I've ever seen they didn't look very scarred but I can appreciate that your aesthetic values change as you develop a skill. The guitars I thought looked cool before I learned to play are much different than the ones I think look cool now.
 

rockm

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That's fair. While I don't think they're the most striking trees I've ever seen they didn't look very scarred but I can appreciate that your aesthetic values change as you develop a skill. The guitars I thought looked cool before I learned to play are much different than the ones I think look cool now.
They don't look very scarred because they've probably been growing over the wire for a decade (or probably more)--It would take at least that long to get that much diameter on a trunk manipulated with wire. The raw look on the Zelkova in the first photo is what you live with for 10 years. this technique produces miserable looking trees for the most part, unless you have a decade or so. If you do, you can get a much nicer trunk simply by NOT wiring the bends in and using a reduction techniques...
 

0soyoung

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Here's the picture I posted on r/bonsai that sparked this thread. A Zelkova on eBay. The comment on eBay said that the wire was almost healed over. Looks hideous to me and I'd be surprised if it survives.
Why wouldn't it survive?
There is a continuous line (spiral in this case) of cambium and phloem from the foliage to the roots just as there is on a beautiful tree.
 

Adair M

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OK, devils advocate strikes again. In essence what Adair is saying is absolutely true on all things covered. However; many techniques are species specific and will not translate to other species well. So; you have to research what it is you want to do and do it. It is my understanding that the Japanese are known to spiral wire around a trunk and allow it to be over-grown, forcing the tree to grow over it and adapt. It is my understanding that this is a technique used on Japanese Black Pine if it is used at all and you will not encounter it in every source you look into. To the beginner this stuff sounds wonderful and a welcome short cut to fat trunks and so forth. The truth is if you do not know or understand what you are doing this could be disastrous leaving you with wasted time and a dead tree. It is true that the quickest way to accomplish what you desire is to plant the tree in the ground. With Junipers this is the easiest way, and with Pines this will produce fat trunks but the bark will not be so good. So-- no matter what you do it depends on your knowledge, experience and skill----not to mention a degree of luck.

The little Mugo shown below (8" tall) is the product of this accidentally and by neglect happening quite a number of years ago. You cannot now see the wire but much of it is still present. You decide.

The truth is, there is no substitute for trees that already posses large trunks, even if the tree is five foot tall and the bonsai your desire is only two feet tall. This is of course the secret of growing bonsai from nursery trees. The only two alternitives are Yamadori which are expensive, difficult to maintain, and impossible to acquire without permits and other hoops to jump through. The only other alternitive is to purchase pre-bonsai from a professional grower that will be glad to charge you the cost of a Chevrolet. This is of course takes us back to your original post. Grow it your self. Do your self a favor; start with larger trees not pencils and straws, start with nursery trees with substantial trunks. The secret is to cut down a nursery tree into a smaller bonsai. The Mugo below starter in a one gallon container it is not about 7-8"s tall. This kind of reduction can be done much quicker than trying to grow a stick into a quality bonsai.

View attachment 246196
Vance, what you are saying is true, the Japanese DO wire thousands of JWP on JBP trunks, and leave the wire to remain on the trunk forever. They are then field grown for a decade or more, then dug and culled. They are then sold as mallsai. Cheap. Some do get exported, the ones that wont sell in Japan!, and they’re expensive because of the cost of all the red tape, quarantine, shipping costs, inventory loss because many don’t survive the shipping/DOA inspections/quarantine.

The quality of those trees, on the whole, is pretty mediocre. But, it’s about the only way to get a JWP! And the foliage of a JWP is the best foliage of all pines.

But, there’s no reason to copy the ugly practice of wire scarring a trunk.

And those twisted larches are the Chinese version! Lol!!!

@Mame-Mo, if you stick with bonsai for any length of time, you will find that these low end commercial bonsai will lose their appeal pretty quickly.
 

rockm

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Why wouldn't it survive?
There is a continuous line (spiral in this case) of cambium and phloem from the foliage to the roots just as there is on a beautiful tree.
Because this is mostly a crap shoot when it comes to not causing enough damage with the wire to girdle the tree, ultimately killing the entire trunk or a portion of it. Mis-wire and you strangle off those pathways completely. Might be obvious to those familiar with wiring trees, but not so much to those who are doing it for the first, second or third time.
 

Mame-Mo

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@Adair M I already really hate the loopty loop shimpaku that seem to be sold online for $500 so regularly. Now I can see how those Larches are essentially the same concept but older. Funnily enough my first JBP is essentially just like that, but I just got it because it was cheap and I wanted to see if I could keep one alive.
 

Adair M

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@Adair M I already really hate the loopty loop shimpaku that seem to be sold online for $500 so regularly. Now I can see how those Larches are essentially the same concept but older. Funnily enough my first JBP is essentially just like that, but I just got it because it was cheap and I wanted to see if I could keep one alive.
Hmm...

Depends upon the “loopy loop”. Some are good, and some aren’t.

There is a style where the trunk is bent in some rather dramatic (but not “over the top”) curves, and branches were trained into corkscrews. And later, the corkscrews were jinned. Those can look pretty cool. I haven’t seen any good ones for $500, though, they’re usually more like $1500. They are drasticly bent, but don’t have wire scars.
 
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