Wires_Guy_Wires 6 year JBP thread

Wires_Guy_wires

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Seeds are on their way as we speak.
I ordered them from some Ebay seller, here's some proof:

View media item 4568

As soon as the seeds arrive, they will be planted in a mixture of potting soil, cat litter (clay based) and pine bark. Watered with tap water and placed outdoors.
I'll need to look for some wire mesh to prevent birds from ruining my seedling tray, as they do every year.

I will not perform a floating test, nor soak the seeds. It'll rain some times, and some times it will not. For millions of years nature has worked that way, and since there are still trees around, I think it might just work out for me as well. The seeds that don't make it are compost.

Some experimenting will be done in time as well. But that's it for now!
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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View media item 4633Seeds came in the mail today. It took so long that I bought another pack of 100 seeds from another ebay seller in the UK.
View media item 4629The one with the label inside is from the Past-prices, the one without label is from hanguye21.

Seeds were thrown in a bed of cat litter, perlite, vermiculite, and leftover material from forest collections. A small top layer was added, then hosed down and a humidity dome was placed on top. Temperatures will reach freezing tonight, hopefully for the last time this year.
View media item 4630

Experimentation background:
I did notice something awesome with JRP, but I don't want it to take over the thread. Anyhow, there'll be some waiting time, six years to be precise. So I'm carefully hypothesizing there might be an alternative to cutting seedlings: shallowest pots you have.
Man, why would you even want to remove roots on a pine?! All jokes aside, cutting off roots means a setback. Sure, you get a lot in return.. But I'm not comfortable with cutting plants I have 0 experience with (other than killing them)
How about no setback? What would you guys think of that?
I think that's better. That's what to aim for, right? Is it okay if I question techniques? Nah, fuck it, I'm questioning it openly. I'm insecure about cutting pines and I want the world to know. I want to avoid cutting them. I'll still do some cuts none the less, but it scares me.

Here's the thing: these JRP were sown in september, october maybe even.. I can't precisely remember. Anyhow, they germinated, half of them died in the blazing autumn sun, another quarter was lost to freezing conditions, a small portion lost to my pot being overly wet. Seeds were over a year old, I mean, I expected nothing at all.
50% of the ones that did make it, have 3 buds within 2 centimeter from the soil. Is that bonsai material enough for ya? These are less than 10 months old..
View media item 4631I'm thinking it's not the winter, nor the weathery conditions, but the shallow pot. This pot is literally 1 cm deep. That's 0.39 inch.

Setup:
I will be cutting seedlings just before the stems turn purple, and I will plant a control in a shallow dish directly after germination.
Another experiment to get the lowest budding possible was found, not in literature, but in experience. I made a special hormonal sauce (woah easy, it's organic of origin) that - at least in some plants - creates major budding at the edge of the soil. Is 4 buds enough? That's what the aim is.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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About a month later, we have lift off on the Chinese side of the germination station!
I'm counting some 5 seedlings that have popped up. Some more will follow soon I guess.

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Wires_Guy_wires

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The chinese seeds were first, but they're not pines. I'm counting 2 leafs on every single one. It seems to be juniper.
English seeds are confirmed pines.

Another batch of chinese Jbp (other seller) was soaked last week, and sown.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Well, what do you know.. Another package was delivered today. Something close to 500 conifer seeds. I didn't make any orders of that size, so I'm clueless of what they are and where they're from.
They look like JBP seeds, and there's flakes inside the package that resemble the flakes found in pine cones. The seeds smell like pines. So they must be pines. The only pines I didn't get yet, were some 2-4 orders of JBP I made in the past 12 months.
Let's just follow them along here. Soaking as we speak.

One of the seedlings has disappeared completely. Leaving only needles and nothing else. I'm suspecting grubs of some sort, or whatever eats entire seedling stems.. Snails? I am dealing with a lot of snails lately. Does anyone know if they eat pines? To my knowledge they don't. But I'm not sure about seedlings. There are no traces whatsoever.. How about that for a cut?!

For the records: I was just granted a patch of forest and a patch of communal garden to keep them in for something over 20 years. Thanks mom and dad!
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Hey, what do you know, the seeds were the most vigorous and highest percentage of germination I've had this year. Now I have something close to 300 jbp.

Some will be cut, now that I know there's enough to go with.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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20180605_191754.jpg
Germination station
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Soaking in 300mg/L IBA for 30 minutes.


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Decapitation station. 30x JBP and while I was at it (and since the order is processed) 30 scots pine. Those aren't in the competition but it would be awful to crop them out.


Science has nothing to do with bonsai
That's a kick in the nuts for me. It's like hearing: "Yeah, I know you spent 8 years in med school, and you're a doctor, but I believe facebook when it comes to vaccinations. They cause autism."
Alright, then I'll keep it a secret on how to induce budding on juvenile foliage. I decided that long ago, I just wanted to rub it in. If people are going to be grumpy farts, they can sit in the smell.

The plants below are JRP (januari sowing batch), 2/3 of the test group has buds on juvenile trunks, compared to 1/30 of the control. Which is just 1 plant, and I might have treated it. So that's branching, 2cm from the soil line. How's that for not having to cut? 0 time reduction, 0 setback.

20180605_202636.jpg20180605_202728.jpg
 

theone420

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I thought the cutting was mainly to get a nice radial root spread to help with nebari. The lower branch was just a happy side effect I thought. Most of my seedlings that were not cut for nebari have started budding just like yours. the 12 that I did cut have not started throwing any buds yet because it seems the growing period was stopped after the cutting and it was putting energy into making roots. this last week they have started growing well and will probably have some buds soon.

Your seedlings are looking good though. Do you care to share your method for getting them to bud? I am always interested in hearing what others are doing in their labs.
And I thought science had a lot to do with growing trees Horticultural Science.
 

my nellie

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... ...Your seedlings are looking good though. Do you care to share your method for getting them to bud? I am always interested in hearing what others are doing in their labs.
And I thought science had a lot to do with growing trees Horticultural Science.
Exactly like @theone420 I do believe that science has a loooot to do with bonsai.
Before the artistic/artisanal aspect of bonsai the horticultural part is coming first.
And putting science to work for bonsai growing is something we all need to learn how to.
So, this makes two of us interested in your methods which we would like to kindly ask you to share with the rest of us.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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I thought the cutting was meant to do both: create a radial nebari and helping branches form lower to the soil line. The risk is quite present with these cuts.
If my method works in the next test, on JBP, I'm willing to share it with interested people. I'll whip up a document by then.
Currently I'm just checking if in vitro tissue culture protocols work in vivo; inducing shoots mainly, and seeing if there's a way of influencing the amount, the timing.
It seems that most pines respond somewhat in the same fashion.

First things first: the third heatwave of this year. Yesterday: 21°C, today we get a 150% of that. If the cuts survive, it would be a small miracle. I should have moved them to the shade.. Ah well, we'll see in 10 hours.
 

my nellie

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... ...First things first: the third heatwave of this year. Yesterday: 21°C, today we get a 150% of that. If the cuts survive, it would be a small miracle. I should have moved them to the shade.. Ah well, we'll see in 10 hours.
32°C today, 33°C for the next two days here in Athens.
If the new batch of seeds germinate for me (hopefully) I do not intend to make cuttings because the weather is too hot now...
 

Anthony

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@my nellie ,

Αλεξάνδρα,

what you should check is the duration of the 32 deg.C.
10 minutes, 30 minutes, whole day ?
Breezes ?

We are hitting 32 deg.C but 10 to 15 minutes and back down
to 30 deg.C to 22 deg.C at night with breezes.
And less than normal rain.
Apologies Wire_Guy_wires.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Dav4

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I thought the cutting was meant to do both: create a radial nebari and helping branches form lower to the soil line. The risk is quite present with these cuts.
If my method works in the next test, on JBP, I'm willing to share it with interested people. I'll whip up a document by then.
Currently I'm just checking if in vitro tissue culture protocols work in vivo; inducing shoots mainly, and seeing if there's a way of influencing the amount, the timing.
It seems that most pines respond somewhat in the same fashion.

First things first: the third heatwave of this year. Yesterday: 21°C, today we get a 150% of that. If the cuts survive, it would be a small miracle. I should have moved them to the shade.. Ah well, we'll see in 10 hours.
32°C today, 33°C for the next two days here in Athens.
If the new batch of seeds germinate for me (hopefully) I do not intend to make cuttings because the weather is too hot now...
I feel like I'm helping the competition here, but oh well... We have been in the 80's - 90's F here for over a month and I've done all my cuttings in that time. Shade and humidity for the first month or so will be needed, but the heat shouldn't be an issue. Put newly made cuttings in the sun and you'll likely have a different outcome.
 

RobertB

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Ive had higher than a 99% live rate with my cuttings. All were made early in the yr and place in bright shade for 6 weeks prior to being placed in the sun. As soon as I move them to the sun they are elongating and setting buds. Normally within a few weeks of being in the sun.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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The humidome is in the backyard, south side. So they get full sun up until the evening. At least 6 hours out of the wind, in the sun.
We have a different kind of "hot" days here in the NL's compared to the mediterrainian. It's humid, pressing heat, no breeze. Making your joints swell and legs heavy. I can walk around in Athens on a hot summer day, but around here, 27°C and up slows people down a lot. It's hard to describe if you ever experienced it. I'll take spain or greece @ 35°C over the NL's @ 27°C any day.
It's not a competition, but the entire country seems to agree that we have a pretty shitty summer climate compared to everyone else in Europe.

I covered the dome with tissue paper, which should reflect the most burning sun. Maybe that will save them until the thunderstorms start turning up.

By the way, i'm fine with some tea house small talk in this thread. I don't mind it at all.
 

my nellie

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... ...By the way, i'm fine with some tea house small talk in this thread. I don't mind it at all.
:) That's good!
I do like people having "small talk" -as you have put it- and exchanging views in a mutual respectful way :)
So, am I correct to assume you have been in Greece, Athens?

Back on track now, I wish that you will update this thread with photographs of your seedling cuttings safe and sound after some time!
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Alright, good news! As of tomorrow, I can call myself a Biotechnologist (aced my traineeship, aced my studies!) and the cuttings survived the first two days.

I haven't been to Athens, I have been to Corfu and a part of the mainland (but I don't remember its name unfortunately). I do remember that our national football team lost and that they loved to rub that into our faces. But the Greeks come off as a happy and cheerful people, always having room for one more. Whether it's good (actual home recipe) souvlaki, or that nasty ouzo. I'm fine with spirits, just not that anise flavor.

Next week will be my first week off in 9 months of full time working. You can expect some pictures of course, because I'll be spending my time in the backyard and running around in the woods.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Cleanup day today. 26 JBP cuttings did not make it.
It's either bacterial, or fungal, or they were cut too soon.
Leftover group got a treatment with protective fungi. I might increase aeration tomorrow by lifting the domes a little with a piece of wood.

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The left is what's left. Scots pine doesn't have the same issue somehow. Those are older. I might have just done the cuts a week too soon.

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Second batch is looking more lively. But I'm expecting the same outcome.

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I have enough to try again, thankfully.
At most, half of the remaining group are going to be cut. The other half will be planted in the field, or in pots.


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An example of said pots.

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So, dutch weather. Hot and humid. Soils don't dry, plants succumb to bacteria. It happens. Shit happens. I'm not complaining, I have seen this happen since I was 15 and started gardening. Some days our soils dry out in hours, some months they take weeks to dry.
This makes it pretty hard to find a good soil composition; it's a battle between having to water 12 times a day, versus watering every other day but risking sudden death. Akadama seems to work though, for everything. But the stuff is so damn expensive. I got a cartwheel full of clay cat litter (100L) and 10L of perlite, for the price of a single bag of Akadama (14L).

I'm more of a survival of the fittest kind of guy. So I don't mind some pines dying, but a high percentage like that kind of makes me scratch my head. They need more air. But they also need no snails, so opening the dome is kind of risking death as well.. I might figure something out.
 
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