? Wiring and bark on JWP

Japonicus

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Today I'm doing a little bit of work on my JWP, a little late, but here goes...

DSC_3754.JPG DSC_3750.JPG DSC_3744.JPG DSC_3746.JPG
@Adair M I said I'd like to pick your brain some before I did any work on this one.
The branches are fairly well set but need some correction.

Thing is the ones that need the most I can get from well anchored wire are the lower ones
that sport the most bark. Should I just go at it and let age replace what happens, or
should I stick to basic structural wiring, away from the trunk and use guy wires where I can?
I've always viewed bark as precious and as an age indicator in pines, so before I get to that today,
thought I'd toss this out there for some opinions.
 

Dav4

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Today I'm doing a little bit of work on my JWP, a little late, but here goes...

View attachment 269588 View attachment 269589 View attachment 269590 View attachment 269591
@Adair M I said I'd like to pick your brain some before I did any work on this one.
The branches are fairly well set but need some correction.

Thing is the ones that need the most I can get from well anchored wire are the lower ones
that sport the most bark. Should I just go at it and let age replace what happens, or
should I stick to basic structural wiring, away from the trunk and use guy wires where I can?
I've always viewed bark as precious and as an age indicator in pines, so before I get to that today,
thought I'd toss this out there for some opinions.
That's how I'd approach wiring this one. Wire out the branches with appropriately sized copper but stay off the trunk and older branches where the old bark has developed. Attach guy wires for the lower branches wire used in re-potting or to a new wire pushed up through a drain hole. Once the lower branches are placed, you can then use guy wires attached to the new branch wiring to redirect the upper branches as needed.
 
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Japonicus

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Have good back budding but I often get stumped on what to prune and what to leave alone
but I'm underway.

For instance, this branch that comprises the top right of this picture...
there's bare branch to the 1st fork and back bud...
while that small shoot won't support the branch, the lower fork opposite it, can.

Stick with me, this is where I get confused...
...each of those 2 forks divide = tertiary...but
since we're wanting to push growth back closer to the trunk
that 1st shoot would be the place to eventually cut back to and begin
what exists now, a few more years down the road.

I need to remove exterior to promote interior so my thought on this one
single example, is to remove the upper larger secondary fork
leaving the shoot opposite the smaller fork.
That should leave enough sap draw to keep that shoot alive right?
 

Dav4

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If I'm understanding your question, then yes, leaving several smaller shoots will allow the branch to survive. With that being said, I'd be careful pruning anything right now. Back budding is more likely to occur on strongly growing branches, and with that in mind, I'd want to thin the needles first, removing all of last year's needles, before cutting back. At that point, if you still feel there's too much growth for that branch/location, go ahead and cut back and thin away unnecessary shoots. Fwiw, I wire almost everything out to place the foliage so it all gets sun.
 

Adair M

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I’m assuming you want to lower all the branches?

The branches themselves can all be wired. They badly need it. Once they’re wired out, then then you can lower them using guy wires.

This tree is still young, I understand the reluctance to damaging bark, but there are ways to protect it.

19CBC6C4-8217-4E30-9167-76673C8C2F42.jpeg

Look at this tree carefully. Almost all the primary branches are being pulled down via guy wires. They are all wired for movement and pad structure. The guy wires are secured to the trunk but padded by either screen window spline or sections of water hose cut to fit. One key is to try to secure the pressure point on the branch to be as close to the trunk as possible. If the pressure is put near the end of the branch, you’ll just get a “rainbow arch” curve. That’s NOT what you want. You want the downward movement to start right at the trunk.
 

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Adair M

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Then you will slobber laughing when you see mine.
Well, if you know your work is not as good as it could be, take it off and do it better. You’ve seen the Colin Lewis tutorial, so try to do it like he does.

You won’t improve by accepting mediocre work.
 

sorce

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I would call that bud opposite the low fork just regular budding. Pesky, unwanted, budding at that.
"Back budding" of the coveted variety, would happen further back the shoot (greens).
Capture+_2019-11-11-09-15-16.png

Anyway that inward pointing shoot is garbage for any future application. As you'll have to rainbow that branch down too far to get that bud into a good pointing area to grow into.
You have it easier cutting the red, then wiring the whole branch with a twist to get that low fork into better position.

But screw that right?
Cuz then that old section I still too long and budless.

Now is NOT a good time to cut that when you NEED those real backbuds.
At the summer solstice is the best time to attempt true backbudding. When the tree has been healthy, and has some time to grow healthy again.

Cutting in this dormant state, now, is only likely to provide a signal for those buds that already exist on the collars. Those BS ones we don't want.

I wouldn't cut anything yet....but....

Sorce
 

Japonicus

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Well, if you know your work is not as good as it could be, take it off and do it better. You’ve seen the Colin Lewis tutorial, so try to do it like he does.

You won’t improve by accepting mediocre work.
The guy wires mostly. I had 3 fail which wastes a LOT of copper wire, breaking from not moving while torquing.
There are 8 sore thumb (compared to yours) guy wires, and I'm almost half way through.
I'm going to have to order more 14 gauge wire, and I just got a shipment 2 weeks ago.
At least I'm using it rather than being totally idle.
DSC_3776.JPG
I am using current tie downs from Springs' repot to anchor to, and being in a mica pot
was able to secure a small screw eye/hook on the back side.
DSC_3779.JPG DSC_3785.JPG DSC_3786.JPG
anyhow it is under construction. Please excuse our mess while we improve.
Sure looks more full, and tighter in, where I haven't wired.
The 2nd branch on the left side with the wire twisted near the shoulder is considered for removal
(for the last 2 years) and remains as does a couple lower pruning points which could possibly
be used for grafting. Like the lowest right branch has static between the mid point and the next
branch up. It is considered for grafting use in the future.
 

Japonicus

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I would call that bud opposite the low fork just regular budding. Pesky, unwanted, budding at that.
"Back budding" of the coveted variety, would happen further back the shoot (greens).
View attachment 270760

Anyway that inward pointing shoot is garbage for any future application. As you'll have to rainbow that branch down too far to get that bud into a good pointing area to grow into.
You have it easier cutting the red, then wiring the whole branch with a twist to get that low fork into better position.

But screw that right?
Cuz then that old section I still too long and budless.

Now is NOT a good time to cut that when you NEED those real backbuds.
At the summer solstice is the best time to attempt true backbudding. When the tree has been healthy, and has some time to grow healthy again.

Cutting in this dormant state, now, is only likely to provide a signal for those buds that already exist on the collars. Those BS ones we don't want.

I wouldn't cut anything yet....but....

Sorce
Did you notice how crazy long this years buds are?
I did 2 things this year, well maybe 3 that contributed to the massively long necks
with the purple pollen cones it had. I did not pinch the new candles (1st time ever for me)
I also repotted, and as normal fed in Springtime as I always had, easing into food...fish/seaweed
ramping up as it recovered...as always. That said this tree is undergoing a shift in care.
A shift I'm not 100% on board with yet, but I'm getting there.

I haven't cut that much off yet, yes some pruning, not going at each and every branch
since I don't have a handle on JWP maintenance yet. I'm trying to follow Adairs lead
in a few specific areas and get his input before I get all crazy and as I try to make that shift in care.
I think this is the 1st year I've pulled more needles rather than cutting the sheaths mostly, and that's mostly underneath.
I think older needles hold more hormones that help generate back budding. Your green mark/arrow is pointing
at a back bud. Is this the one you said would have to rainbow down? It is pointing outwardly I think.
 

sorce

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I didn't see any buds along the branch by the green. That's good!

I was talking about this one.Capture+_2019-11-11-13-59-10.png

I thought that was ...
leaving the shoot opposite the smaller fork.

Sorce
 

River's Edge

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Perhaps another point of view from someone who spends a lot of time developing conifers.
Things take time. That small shoot may prove to be useful to cut back to when the outer shoots have been removed and you still wish to enduce backbudding further along the branch closer to the trunk.
I would definitely remove it if i were in refinement and thinning the area.
It is similar with new shoots in the crotch of a bifurcation. Normally removed as useless, but in certain circumstances a jumping off point for new growth closer to the trunk.
 

Japonicus

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the crotch of a bifurcation.

Normally removed as useless, but in certain circumstances a jumping off point for new growth closer to the trunk.
Thanks Frank! I have a new word in my vocabulary 🖋 :)
Agreed on the new ("jumping off") point and closer to the trunk. That is my plan, but all too many times
we get such that will not resound or echo throughout the tree and you get one great branch in a spot here and there
while the rest of the tree plays catch up or grafting occurs, and the tree still plays catch up, but on a quicker note.
However I am not speaking from grafting experience unfortunately.
DSC_3790.JPG

I made a little more headway today but had to stop and order 2 more rolls of #14. I have <2' left.
 

Japonicus

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Since my styling of pines is weak I need to ask...
...since I'm not willing to part with the 1st and lowest branch by my hand...
and it is limited to the amount I can lower it to the soil level...
...shouldn't other branches echo a similar drop angle???

In the meantime I've began lowering branches above it at more of an angle than it is
and I think this is wrong.
 

Adair M

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The guy wires mostly. I had 3 fail which wastes a LOT of copper wire, breaking from not moving while torquing.
There are 8 sore thumb (compared to yours) guy wires, and I'm almost half way through.
I'm going to have to order more 14 gauge wire, and I just got a shipment 2 weeks ago.
At least I'm using it rather than being totally idle.
View attachment 270775
I am using current tie downs from Springs' repot to anchor to, and being in a mica pot
was able to secure a small screw eye/hook on the back side.
View attachment 270776 View attachment 270777 View attachment 270778
anyhow it is under construction. Please excuse our mess while we improve.
Sure looks more full, and tighter in, where I haven't wired.
The 2nd branch on the left side with the wire twisted near the shoulder is considered for removal
(for the last 2 years) and remains as does a couple lower pruning points which could possibly
be used for grafting. Like the lowest right branch has static between the mid point and the next
branch up. It is considered for grafting use in the future.
All the wire you used on the spiral wiring is too thin to be effective.
 

Japonicus

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Before and After
1574017907645.pngDSC_3806.JPG
I ran out of wire last week, got more in during the Arctic blast and was able to "finish up" today.
Was able to torque down the lower branches several inches for now.
There's a guy wire you cant see in the pic pulling the top to the left a bit. I think other than torquing
branches above the lowest one, down some more, that I'm done with this tree for the year.
I'm concerned with over working some branches to the point that I have to stop and see what gives.
DSC_3801.JPG DSC_3802.JPG DSC_3803.JPG
 
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