Worth it?

[rockm]

FWIW, I looked at the link to the Kotohime that sold for $1,200 on ebay. That tree wouldn't bring that much money here in the east to someone who's regularly been to shows and some of the bonsai nurseries here. It's far too underdeveloped for such a price, IMO.

HOWEVER, if you don't get to bonsai shows, sales, club meetings, etc. or live in an area where all of those resources are scarce and if you're really after a nicer maple and have the cash, who's to say it's not worth it?

Living in areas that have a wealth of bonsai resources spoils some people. They see what is available to them and somehow think that it's the norm. I have this fault, but I recognize it from time to time

 

[buddhamonk]

Here is a shohin maple that just sold for $1200...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180685631522&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

well it does say "world class" in the title

 

[Harunobu]

In Japan it takes 2 years to get a phytosanitary certificate. But if they have it they can export. I think that when a Japanese nursery gets a certificate from the EU, no quarantine is needed. But in the US I think all plants need to be put in quarentine (and bare rooted?).
Sometimes the plants that are exported to the west are the ones with the flaws because they are worth less so it is worth more the risk.


You can try to calculate the prize of a bonsai objectively by guessing how much time and resources were invested in it. But that doesn't say anything about the aethetic value at all.

Does something still need to be translated?

 

[Mike423]

"my friend sold a painting for 800 and i personally didn't think it was worth that much but the buyer did and so did my friend and im pretty sure all three of us aren't fools... in general an oil painting is worth more to someone who can't paint. bonsai isn't exactly easy and just because your good at it dosn't mean its all worthless."

Very Well put.

 

[Alex DeRuiter]

Not so much that, but . . . "Mother, I'd rather do it myself!"

For me, 99% of the enjoyment in bonsai is the doing of it, not the owning of it.

While I agree wholeheartedly with this outlook, someone (I think it was Rockm) pointed out in another post that buying trees that have been worked on gives one an opportunity to learn a lot from the tree. Being a beginner, I think I could learn a ton from material that has been worked on, but I'm sure I will be taking the DIY approach a decade or two from now.

Also, with all the trouble it would cause trying to get a tree from this website, I believe I'll be taking an alternate route and just buying from the States -- and probably the East Coast, given the posts in this thread.

 

[Mike423]

I agree, while I wouldn't necessarily spend a lot of money on a 'finished' tree (especially while still in the early stages of learning), I have in the past and would recommend getting a more developed tree once you get a little past the beginner point. Not only does a more developed tree allow the person to help fine tune there practices and learn tactics that only come with higher levels of tree training, but allows them to have at least one tree that they can more appreciate and enjoy. Otherwise they might get discouraged from Bonsai, dealing with nothing but sticks and twigs.

 

[Smoke]

Well, since you seem to have extensive knowledge on bonsai material, why not share with all of us where in the U.S. we can purchase the same quality material for less? I'd love to know and I'm sure there's a lot of others here as well.

Jump on a flight to California in Nov. for the GSBF convention or in Feb. for the shohin convention. Both would be an eye opener for you.
Like Mark said, sometimes when you live in a state so rich with material for half what the rest of the country pays, I tend to forget what those less fortunate have to resort to to get a tree.


These trees were for sale at the 2009 convention. About the same price as the tree on ebay.

 

[Smoke]

Not so much that, but . . . "Mother, I'd rather do it myself!"

For me, 99% of the enjoyment in bonsai is the doing of it, not the owning of it.

Will Heath never understood why this was a dumb idea either.

 

[John Ruger]

Jump on a flight to California in Nov. for the GSBF convention or in Feb. for the shohin convention. Both would be an eye opener for you.
Like Mark said, sometimes when you live in a state so rich with material for half what the rest of the country pays, I tend to forget what those less fortunate have to resort to to get a tree.


These trees were for sale at the 2009 convention. About the same price as the tree on ebay.

Beautiful trees, are those yours?

 

[Smoke]

No, just some maples and junipers for sale at the convention two years ago. Most of them were right around 1200.00 bucks.

There are many growers right here in the states that are producing material like in the picture from Japan. If there continues to be a market for this sort of thing it will continue to grow.

Most of this sort of material just takes time. That tree in the post from Japan is not that great of a tree. Certainly not worth 1200.00, yet many here in the states would jump to own it. Comparing our nation to Japan, the size of Cal. is kinda pointless unless one really knows what is available and at what price.

Compare William Valavanis' first national exhibit and realize that three of the top placing trees and the best of the exhibit came from Cal. and the pacific northwest.


Then consider an exhibit likes Boons or REB's where literaly hundreds of trees at that caliber are on display, keeping in mind that the tree that was considered best of the best in New York was only average here in California.


There literaly hundreds of trees around the country grown by people that have never seen a bonsai forum web site and sell trees that good for half the price.

 

[rockm]

"There literaly hundreds of trees around the country grown by people that have never seen a bonsai forum web site and sell trees that good for half the price."

I wholeheartedly agree. It's FINDING them that can take some shoeleather and a bit of time. They are out there though. Many are not on the web. Some actually shun the web because they don't want the hassle of mailing trees--which can add considerably to their costs in time, money and aggravation.

 

[Attila Soos]

That E-Bay maple for $1,200 is a terrible deal. My gosh.

I am not sure that I would pay $200, seriously. Juvenile-looking, and boring.
Smoke is right, for $1,200 you can get a trident with a killer trunk and nebari. Then you would need another 3 years to develop some good branch structure, which would be the fun part, and you can take credit for the final design. And you don't have to spend 15-20 years, growing a trunk.

 

[John Ruger]

Ok, Smoke and rockm what you say makes sense, I understand. Yet, I'm willing to bet there are far more bonsai from Japan finding their way over here that are not on the level as opposed to legitimate imports. Why is that? This is one of those questions that keeps getting dodged here and on other forums. If the quality and quantity of bonsai cultivation in the U.S. was equal to Japan, then there would be no temptation to break the law.

 

[rockm]

"Yet, I'm willing to bet there are far more bonsai from Japan finding their way over here that are not on the level as opposed to legitimate imports. This is one of those questions that keeps getting dodged here and on other forums. If the quality and quantity of bonsai cultivation in the U.S. was equal to Japan, then there would be no temptation to break the law. "

You'd lose money. The temptation is always there for a few, which this link shows. There are people that simply don't know the importation rules, or those that do and can't ignore the temptation to have a "Japanese" tree -- at tree from the "bonsai motherland" so to speak. The people that can afford to buy a Japanese tree aren't all that common, given the sky-high prices. Given the links here that show what can be bought in the US for similar money, I'd say there are certainly equal, even better, trees for the money in the U.S. and people know it.

Some folks have admitted online from time to time to smuggling mame and shohin trees from Japan in their luggage. Those illegal imports, however, are not all that common.

The bulk of illegally imported material that may pass itself off as Japanese originates in China. I'm not all that sure the link to that tree goes to Japan...

 

[Attila Soos]

Ok, Smoke and rockm what you say makes sense, I understand. Yet, I'm willing to bet there are far more bonsai from Japan finding their way over here that are not on the level as opposed to legitimate imports. Why is that? This is one of those questions that keeps getting dodged here and on other forums. If the quality and quantity of bonsai cultivation in the U.S. was equal to Japan, then there would be no temptation to break the law.

A lot of those illegal trees are purchased for prices next to nothing, and the Japanese grower is willing to get something for it, then to get nothing in Japan. Once they hit the US, those trees can sell for a high profit margin. So, if they are lost during the process, there is no significant loss, but if they make it, it's a nice profit from almost nothing. With the large cargo business that comes to our ports every day, it's not too hard to hide them, and nobody really cares. It's pocket change, in the big scheme of things, and compared to other type of illegal operations (such as rare plants and animals, drugs, etc.).

 

[Attila Soos]

The bulk of illegally imported material that may pass itself off as Japanese originates in China. I'm not all that sure the link to that tree goes to Japan...

I wanted to mention the same thing.
When I go to Chinatown, here in Los Angeles, and I talk to some of these vendors, selling all kind of stuff that you can't find anywhere else, they always tell me that one can get almost anything from China, with little or no risk.

 

[John Ruger]

A lot of those illegal trees are purchased for prices next to nothing, and the Japanese grower is willing to get something for it, then to get nothing in Japan. Once they hit the US, those trees can sell for a high profit margin. So, if they are lost during the process, there is no significant loss, but if they make it, it's a nice profit from almost nothing. With the large cargo business that comes to our ports every day, it's not too hard to hide them, and nobody really cares. It's pocket change, in the big scheme of things, and compared to other type of illegal operations (such as rare plants and animals, drugs, etc.).

That's my point, and you see them posted on different forums from time to time; "look at what I got".
That's why people can be tempted because they want certain material that is simply too difficult, expensive or non-existent over here.

I agree with you rockm, and please don't get me wrong, I certainly don't advocate breaking the law, but what you're saying as well is that there is a part of the bonsai community essentially comprised of hermits who don't come out except for shows or if you know the secret handshake. Not everyone can play this "Where's Waldo?" with a bonsai recluse who doesn't believe in the web.

 

[rockm]

"That's why people can be tempted because they want certain material that is simply too difficult, expensive or non-existent over here."

I think a pretty small portion of those who illegally import do so because of the quality is so much higher than what's available in the States. The knowlegable "in-the-know"people understand they can get decent material in the states for their money and the quality is only getting better here (look at some of our yamadori, for instance--some of which the Japanese are extremely interested in)

I think people doing the "look what I got" thing are doing it to feed their egos and show off a "Japanese" tree. That's kind of funny as what is usually exported from Japan are "seconds" or "thirds"--inferior material that the Japanese don't want to deal with. Most Japanese imports are not nearly the same quality that remains in Japan. That's not true of all Japanese imports and there are notable exceptions, but they are not all that common.

 

[Attila Soos]

I certainly don't advocate breaking the law, ...

This just made me think about my purchase of a large ficus bonsai a couple of months ago from the local Chinatown. I suspect that it is a smuggled tree from China, with a nebari close to a foot in diameter. I paid $320 for this monster of a bonsai (I can barely lift it).

By making the purchase, am I advocating illegal trade? May be.
But how can I get such a large tropical bonsai, if I don't buy it from these guys, and if I don't want to pay an arm and a leg?

 

[Smoke]

That's my point, and you see them posted on different forums from time to time; "look at what I got".
That's why people can be tempted because they want certain material that is simply too difficult, expensive or non-existent over here.

I agree with you rockm, and please don't get me wrong, I certainly don't advocate breaking the law, but what you're saying as well is that there is a part of the bonsai community essentially comprised of hermits who don't come out except for shows or if you know the secret handshake. Not everyone can play this "Where's Waldo?" with a bonsai recluse who doesn't believe in the web.

Without having to send my post to the karaoki bar, I might remind some of you out there that like those on welfare, unemployment (welfare), food stamps, earned income credits and medicaid there will be those in bonsai that will look at what others have and try to figure out why they have what they have.

Like those social programs I mentioned, there will be bonsai "haves", and bonsai "havenots". Like floating down a river in a tube is much the same as our journey in life. When we come to a fork in the river the choices we make determine how we spend the rest of our lives. Where we live, where we work, who we marry, what we choose as a hobby. If one lives in a bonsai desert (material wise) it will be very hard to understand how I feel.

How many bonsai professionals live within a 4 hour drive from where you live? I have 27 to choose from. People like Boon, or Kathy Shaner, Jim Gremel, Kenji Miyata, Kats Kinoshita, Lindsey Shiba, Ted Matson, Harry Hirao or many to numerous to mention.
You just can't compare bonsai in Montana with bonsai in California.