Would you let someone style your tree for you?

[Fidur]

I admit that during my first months in this hobby, I would have loved an expert hand to decide what to do and do the styling work for me.
Today I read somewhere that someone asked a professional to do a styling job on one of their trees....
I even felt chills. No, no and a thousand times no. I wouldn't let anyone do the work of thinking about how to style it, much less style it himself. Even if it was the very Ryan Neal or whoever.
I'm not talking about sharing and commenting styling ideas with others, but let someone decide and apply whatever he decides...
Why leave the funniest part of all this in someone else's hands? That would no longer be my tree.
If I have achieved anything at this point, it is to have confidence in my own decisions and generally be delighted with the result. Anf if not satisfied, to think I can improve it.

And you, would you let a professional do the job?

 

[Perplexody]

I sit on the opposite side of the fence.
If given the opportunity to have a professional touch up/ style one of my trees I'd take it in a heartbeat, artists giving a slight or not so slight personal spin is part of the appeal of most artwork for me.
not to mention the perceived value of a "famous" name in bonsai attached to a tree weather it be the pot it's in or a major styling decision that stays with it for the foreseeable future

 

[Ply]

Styling is the most fun part, I agree on that. And I wouldn't quickly allow anybody to style one of my trees. But when it comes to someone of the very utmost level of skill, like Ryan Neil or Bjorn Bjorholm, it would be a different story. These guys would be able to come up with something you would never be able to on your own. I think it would be a great experience to work further upon a styling foundation they set out for you.

And keep in mind that a tree is never finished in one styling session. There's still years left of work to do, and new styling decisions to be made. Plenty of time to still make it 'yours'.

 

[19Mateo83]

I don’t have any trees worthy of a masters touch but i would say no but with one exception. If I had purchased a tree from the one who is going to be doing the styling, than yes. In that case they obviously had a vision for that individual tree and I had liked it enough to purchase it in the first place.

 

[vancehanna]

Hi Fidur,
I've been at this for a bit longer and have found that many many clubs* have a sensei who is sort of the guy who styles 'your' tree. I've been to a plethora of workshops and administered my fair share as well. I've had experiences with some of the best including Johnny Uchida, John Naka, Toshio Saburomaru and also Kimura in 2000 at his first US visit. (Along with a full list of American and Europeans et al...)
The recognized "Masters" and such in many cases will not even ask (when a student or participant is present) if work will be done. They just do it. One such (name withheld) years ago broke off the main branch on one of my yamadori's (this was when I thought I knew a little about bonsai in 1982) and the tree within a month was gone.
I have learned that to bring a tree to a workshop most people just 'let the doctor' do his thing. It is your decision. Yet don't bring (as I did) your best stuff! Bring a tree that 'befuddles' or stymies you. Take advantage of the opportunity to inquire about such! Without a doubt I was looking for a 'Good boy, nice job' type of moment with the Master.... It ain't gunna happen!
Another very important Japanese Master at a workshop in Ann Arbor, MI back about '85 wanted to 'work' on my JBP that I'd grown from seed into a Moyogi or slanted style (with a nebari of approximately 5" [approx 13cm]) into a Chokan (formal upright)! I was appalled, and most kindly said: "Domo ar e gato".....and watched him wack away on other folks trees.

If someone is not at all artistic and needs some guidance it is not a bad idea to have the "local" sensei offer some help or do the work for you. Again, as you've said: "it is to have confidence in my own decisions..."

As Toshio used to say: "Enjoy your bonsai"......

* here in CA

 

[rockm]

Depends on who it is of course. Can't be some "expert" at a club meeting, etc. I've worked with a few folks on my trees over the years, people I trust and who have loads more ideas and experience than me. I think my trees are better for that. They are still "my" trees, though.

I have found that allowing someone else (who is knowledgeable and/or a long-time bonsaiist) to work on trees occasionally. That work can actually be BETTER than yours and get you past places where you might be "stuck" on design. Those people have no sentimental value to branches, other features that you are hesitant to do anything with or somehow value for no real reason. That freedom can allow quite a bit of advancement for the tree. Your work isn't negated or invalidated. The thought that is won't be "your" tree because of that work is a highly ego-driven thought that doesn't advance the tree much. Your mistakes and timidity are also "yours" and those things nag you on and on and get worse and worse as your ownership ages. Think someone who inherits or buys "your" tree (if you're good enough, your trees will inevitably end up in someone else's backyard). They will remodel, rework and probably ruthlessly get rid of many of your mistakes and "vision" in favor their own.

 

[ShadyStump]

I can direct a tree from sapling, and I can further develop a tree that already has character. However I still have serious problems with finding the tree in overgrown nursery stock, which is all I can really afford right now.
If I had an opportunity to have a good teacher take ahold of some of these and take me step by step through their decision making process and demonstrate, I would walk away with both more knowledge and a decent tree that I'm able to keep going.
That's the only situation I imagine myself jumping at the opportunity to have someone else work on my trees, for the sake of learning.

 

[Wulfskaar]

This question gives me anxiety.

I think I would only allow on trees that I have multiple of, and none of them would be my favorites. Also, there would be a reason why I am allowing it, such as being stuck mentally on where to go.

I would happily take advice and guidance, but would want to decide for myself and also do for myself. I learn best by doing.

Otherwise, I would feel very uncomfortable having someone else hacking at my trees.

 

[jimib]

I absolutely will let a pro style my trees. I’ve paid for workshops and to be in study groups with Sergio Cuan, Owen Reich and Jim Doyle..not just for advice but to get an initial styling or idea going. Usually a 3-5 year plan. Worth every penny. I feel no matter how far I go or learn I’ll still need advice, and I’m willing to take it. For example i have a RMJ that may actually be a Cali juniper. When discussing it with Sergio I told him my ideas..then we talked about his. This was a view of the tree I hadn’t even looked at. If it were the right time of year I would have certainly let him take the reigns and do what he felt with it. His skill set is miles ahead of mine..

 

[IzzyG]

Depends on who it is and whether I like their other work. Just being a famous/well known bonsai name doesn’t cut it for me.

 

[Adamski77]

I can direct a tree from sapling, and I can further develop a tree that already has character. However I still have serious problems with finding the tree in overgrown nursery stock, which is all I can really afford right now.
If I had an opportunity to have a good teacher take ahold of some of these and take me step by step through their decision making process and demonstrate, I would walk away with both more knowledge and a decent tree that I'm able to keep going.
That's the only situation I imagine myself jumping at the opportunity to have someone else work on my trees, for the sake of learning.

I'm sitting in the same camp... never been to workshop and probably won't be any time soon (considering where I live) but the most important part for me if someone else would work on my tree would be to understand the decision making process and why things are done the way they are done. Doesn't really matter who cuts, bends, wires... as long as I can follow the thought process I would be totally ok.
Still my preference would be to discuss the plan in details with a given master and execute myself... I think it would give (me at least) a certain sense of accomplishment... confirmation I can do stuff myself... and also greater sense of "ownership"... plus the learning... I'm strong believer in learning through doing rather than watching.

btw... @Fidur ... you always start this interesting conversations

 

[Mike Corazzi]

I can beat most quotes.

 

[Lorax7]

Of course, I would (and have). It's not like having a professional work on your tree for a bit in a workshop is ever going to be a complete start-to-finish styling of a tree. They're not going to take away all the fun. There will be plenty left that needs to be done to the tree. What a good bonsai artist will do is provide some vision and set your feet on a path to traverse. You still have to walk that path (and maybe take a little different route than what they'd envisioned while still heading in the general direction that was laid out).

 

[bbk]

Do we ever own trees, or are we merely custodians?

 

[penumbra]

No..............Yes............Maybe, it depends.

 

[ShadyStump]

I'm sitting in the same camp... never been to workshop and probably won't be any time soon (considering where I live) but the most important part for me if someone else would work on my tree would be to understand the decision making process and why things are done the way they are done. Doesn't really matter who cuts, bends, wires... as long as I can follow the thought process I would be totally ok.
Still my preference would be to discuss the plan in details with a given master and execute myself... I think it would give (me at least) a certain sense of accomplishment... confirmation I can do stuff myself... and also greater sense of "ownership"... plus the learning... I'm strong believer in learning through doing rather than watching.

btw... @Fidur ... you always start this interesting conversations

Exactly how I feel about it.

That all said, I don't mean to discount the act of collaboration that's in the nature of a craft that has the possibility of spanning into the next generation. I don't do bonsai just for the sake of having nice trees. I do it CREATE nice trees. Working with someone, side by side, is absolutely on the table, even if it's not side by side in the same place at the same time.

 

[ShadyStump]

Do we ever own trees, or are we merely custodians?

???

No..............Yes............Maybe, it depends.

What he said.

 

[bbk]

???

If trees, whether bonsai or not, out live us, do we own them, or just responsible for their health and well-being until we pass them on. Whatever that looks like.

 

[Shogun610]

I can beat most quotes.

View attachment 448080

Is that what you mean by strong graphic violence , language , smoking ?

 

[Joe Dupre']

Nope......any more than I'd let someone paint a picture for me if I was an artist. Now, if I were just into bonsai trees for their beauty and not into styling them, then yes, I would let an expert style a tree for me.