WP in ground "style" too far gone ?

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#1
I'm not very good with pines at all, but they live.
I lost my 1st pine, a BP to needle cast early this Summer and I get so confused on techniques
that a workshop, no, many workshops, is the only way I'm ever going to learn techniques with confidence.
There are no bonsai clubs/workshops near me, and it will take years of trying to get into one, once a year at best (after I retire).

Here goes, I've had 2 of these dwarf WP I got at a local nursery since closed, so I don't know which WP it is.
They're on their own roots, the distinct circle above the aging bark line must be from a tag left on too long.
The other one is about 1/3 the diameter as this one, as it's been kept in a pot not the ground, it has no such abrupt line.
It does have bark transitioning to smooth, I am confident they are not grafted.

I bought these prior to 2008, and the one in ground has been there several years. Probably at least 5 yrs where it is.

How should I approach this tree? What should I be doing to it now with lifting/collecting in mind?
I really fear a couple of large branches have gone beyond styling, and the result is a neglected heap
that may not be able to be recovered. My tools are basic at best, my knowledge even worse.
I cut back the branches some last Fall, and guess I should be on my hands and knees, cutting candles and thinning
but not really sure.

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It used to be a fantastic candidate till I let it grow unchecked too long.


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0soyoung

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Looks like an Eastern white pine (pinus strobus).

The good news about them is that you can treat them like a Japanese white pine or a Japanese black pine or like any other pine one can think of. The bad news is that they will not bud on old wood (well, in truth I got a bud on old wood, once). But they do readily release fascicular buds!

The 'standard way' to treat EWP (if there is such a thing) is to simply knock off all the candles in early spring, just after they have started to push or by the time needle scales start to be evident. They will pop some fascicular buds, as a consequence, as well as replace the terminal that will flush later in the spring. Then it boils down to pruning back to a bud once the foliage is hardened (which is noted by the needle sheaths dropping).

Your tree doesn't look 'too far gone' to me. Most of it is sacrificial, being grown to produce a thick base trunk. Your bonsai lies in that lower left branch, IMHO. So, once you're satisfied with the thickness of the trunk coming out from the ground, chop the trunk just above that branch and let it be the next sacrifice - grow it until it becomes almost a thick, then lop it off and let an upper branch be the third trunk section or make it into the apex. Good ol' zig-zag trunk, just like JBP. Personally, I like a more feminine 'curvy' image. All it would take is some wire and bending of that first branch to change that - the routine is the same, I think, but this simple move will soften the image.

I have a little EWP "minima" that I've been wrestling with for many years now, so I share your exasperation. P. strobus is commonly used as a root stock for other pines, so grafting foliage may be part of achieving a successful bonsai. That lower right branch isn't usable as it is, but if foliage were grafted closer to the trunk it might be. You could make a scion of one of this year's shoots from that same branch and see how it goes before lopping that branch off if it doesn't work out.

On the other hand, if you want to keep it as a landscape tree, I think you need do similar things, just keep more of the tree. It will take a few years, but it can likely be turned into a bush - not that you would want that, necessarily, but you'll easily have lots of foliage and branches to admire and to maintain. The attention required for the landscape is only a lazy morning/afternoon of a day in spring and another in summer/fall. Stems are quite bendy when young, but quickly become stiff, so stiff that it is very difficult to bend them to foreshorten an image. At that point you and I both sigh and start muttering about how it got away from us. This, for me, is what makes EWP so 'impossible' as bonsai. In the landscape, it rarely matters.

The good news about trying to make an EWP bonsai is that just about anything else is easier, once you've tried.

I think it will take a couple of years preparation before you lift this one, if that is what you decide. Map out 6 or 8 pie wedges around the tree and root prune half of them with a spade - two cuts, removing the root sections between. Then the other half in the second year. Then with fine roots developed closer to the trunk lift it in the third. That is, unless you know the roots are already close to the trunk.
 
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#3
Looks like an Eastern white pine (pinus strobus).

The good news about them is that you can treat them like a Japanese white pine or a Japanese black pine or like any other pine one can think of. The bad news is that they will not bud on old wood (well, in truth I got a bud on old wood, once). But they do readily release fascicular buds!

The 'standard way' to treat EWP (if there is such a thing) is to simply knock off all the candles in early spring, just after they have started to push or by the time needle scales start to be evident. They will pop some fascicular buds, as a consequence, as well as replace the terminal that will flush later in the spring. Then it boils down to pruning back to a bud once the foliage is hardened (which is noted by the needle sheaths dropping).

Your tree doesn't look 'too far gone' to me. Most of it is sacrificial, being grown to produce a thick base trunk. Your bonsai lies in that lower left branch, IMHO. So, once you're satisfied with the thickness of the trunk coming out from the ground, chop the trunk just above that branch and let it be the next sacrifice - grow it until it becomes almost a thick, then lop it off and let an upper branch be the third trunk section or make it into the apex. Good ol' zig-zag trunk, just like JBP. Personally, I like a more feminine 'curvy' image. All it would take is some wire and bending of that first branch to change that - the routine is the same, I think, but this simple move will soften the image.

I have a little EWP "minima" that I've been wrestling with for many years now, so I share your exasperation. P. strobus is commonly used as a root stock for other pines, so grafting foliage may be part of achieving a successful bonsai. That lower right branch isn't usable as it is, but if foliage were grafted closer to the trunk it might be. You could make a scion of one of this year's shoots from that same branch and see how it goes before lopping that branch off if it doesn't work out.

On the other hand, if you want to keep it as a landscape tree, I think you need do similar things, just keep more of the tree. It will take a few years, but it can likely be turned into a bush - not that you would want that, necessarily, but you'll easily have lots of foliage and branches to admire and to maintain. The attention required for the landscape is only a lazy morning/afternoon of a day in spring and another in summer/fall. Stems are quite bendy when young, but quickly become stiff, so stiff that it is very difficult to bend them to foreshorten an image. At that point you and I both sigh and start muttering about how it got away from us. This, for me, is what makes EWP so 'impossible' as bonsai. In the landscape, it rarely matters.

The good news about trying to make an EWP bonsai is that just about anything else is easier, once you've tried.

I think it will take a couple of years preparation before you lift this one, if that is what you decide. Map out 6 or 8 pie wedges around the tree and root prune half of them with a spade - two cuts, removing the root sections between. Then the other half in the second year. Then with fine roots developed closer to the trunk lift it in the third. That is, unless you know the roots are already close to the trunk.
Was going to tag you but it didn't auto fill. Not sure if that means I'm blocked or not, but I most certainly
appreciate your time and effort on this. I do remember the tag saying dwarf when I bought these 50 or $60 each back when.

Foreshorten, a new word in my vocabulary I have been forewarned :) Very stout branches indeed.

I will have certainly refer back to your helps along the way over the next few years. Good to know on the root wedges. Clever.
Should I spade the entire circumference this Fall a foot out from the trunk 2'+ diameter? Then start the candle and pruning a couple years
including wedging the roots? Wedge in March and alternate March the following year or wait till candles extend?

As I stated I'm not very knowledgable with Pines but am trying. Sheath dropping? Now you're thinking OMG what did I get myself into...

I had this tree under control early on per my pictures (not shown), then the one with the stupid forked feet/trunk forget the term
is the one I've at least kept the branches from crossing the trunk. It went root bound as the roots grew this Spring,
so I will become more familiar with this trees potting needs as I now tag my trees over the next few years. In the meantime
I have to aerate the root ball.

Thanks so much for your reply. I'm sure I'll have more questions on it as it goes.
 

0soyoung

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Was going to tag you but it didn't auto fill
I am a punster. I am not so young --> naught so young
The first character is a zero.
Ohhhh!! o_O

btw, if you quote a post the author of that post is automatically tagged just by replying directly to their post.

All pine leaves (needles) come in groups, a fascicle. White pines are 5 needle pines, the needles are in bundles of 5. The needle bundles have a little wrapper around their base, the needle sheath. The unique thing about every white pine species (as far as I know) is that these sheaths fall off about now. It looks like a bunch of brownish papery bits. When you see this, the new needles are firmly attached and highly productive, making lots of carbohydrates and auxin. Among other things, auxin drives root growth. On other pines you have to judge when this happens by the color of the needles and how firmly attached they are (a guess).

Good to know on the root wedges. Should I spade the entire circumference this Fall a foot out from the trunk 2'+ diameter? Then start the candle and pruning a couple years including wedging the roots? Wedge in March and alternate March the following year or wait till candles extend?
I didn't word things clearly the first time. The pattern is similar to a dart board with two rings six inches or so apart positioned at the drip line (where water would drip off the foliage). Then these circles you draw a diameter and another perpendicular to that and then another that is at 45 degrees and another 45 degree diameter perpendicular to that. This makes 8 pie wedges. In the first season you dig out the roots between the two rings in alternate wedges. Then you do the same to the other segments the next year. It isn't important that it be 8. it could be sixths of the circumference, quarters; I just think it better to spread it out more than chopping all the roots on one side of the tree (which very well be just as good as getting fancy like I've described).

So I would do this, root prune, as soon as the sheaths drop, so about now this year and again next year (2019), Then about this time in 2020 you lift and pot it when it has all this high powered foliage to drive its recovery. Doing this, you should put off shoot pruning to as late as you can. I often prune in November. The average first frost date is about Thanksgiving here. The coldest time isn't until January and even then it is no colder than 20F overnight. So, were you in my climate, your tree would have 3 months or so of high powered root growth before you trim back that productive foliage going into winter. You'll just have to make your guess based on your climate.

Spring 2019 you can look over your tree and trim back to the fascicular buds that developed over this season and this coming winter. When you don't find any fascicular buds on a branch, just knock off the terminal candle. This is March-ish. Then about 4 weeks later IIRC, the buds will be elongated, pale green, and will be getting 'bumpy' as little scales are expressed. This is the time to break/pinch them so that the vigor is balanced over the tree. Later (another 3 or 4 weeks, IIRC), as needles are starting to emerge, you can pinch them again, if you want. I generally repinch only ones that are just 'way too big'. All this bud pinching does initiate some 'back budding'. I'm sorry that I don't trust my recall of time gaps. I look over the trees at least weekly and act based on the visual clues. The first season is maybe a little trying, but it is EZPZ after that.


This whole diatribe can likely be boiled down into an action item list of 5 or 6 bullets.
My apologies, but it is one of those 'exercises left to the sturdent' :p
 
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Ah, zero, no wonder, thanks for the clarification.

I understand what a sheath is, I just hadn’t observed anything dropping or coming off before.
I didn’t realize pines shed sheaths while retaining a sheath, like snake skin I suppose.

Your wording was perfectly presented and understood 1st time on the wedging except time of year.
Thinking root work should be done as in potting timing too, I thought maybe a complete circle
may be a place to start this the 1st year approach, stage one. Nursing a critically ill pet I will get back
to you this evening. Just wanted to reply with another thanks, I appreciate your patience.
 

0soyoung

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I didn’t realize pines shed sheaths while retaining a sheath, like snake skin I suppose.
It is a characteristic unique to white pines, as far as I know. There may be some 2 or 3 needle pines that do it too, but I don't know of it. It is just a handy phenomenon - look Ma, I'm hardened!

I didn't answer your question about chopping. Pines often don't respond well to drastic reductions. In my experience, EWP are very tough/forgiving in this regard, but I suggest you do it in two stages. This fall when you are cutting back this year's shoots, remove half to two thirds of the foliage along the trunk, only keeping stuff at the very top (like a poodle tail). Then about this time or maybe a little later in the season next year (2019) chop it off if you want.

Pines can be chopped/pruned most anytime. The dead of winter is not so good because the tree, being dormant, is unable to compartmentalize the cut. Mid-season, pruning tends to produce resin bleed which freaks out many people. Sometimes it gets messy/ugly but it is temporary and doesn't harm the tree - it is a normal reaction (I view it to be nature's cut paste). The tendency to do this abates fairly quickly as summer progresses. By August it will be minimal. I think you already know this.

Thinking root work should be done as in potting timing too
Yes, kind of obvious isn't it? I prefer Aug/Sep (after the summer solstice) for most all conifers, quince, and waxy leafed angiosperms. Hardened foliage producing lots of auxin and carbohydrate powers root growth. If you are more comfortable with spring 'as buds swell', do it then.
I thought maybe a complete circle
may be a place to start this the 1st year approach, stage one.
You could. If you know there are fine/feeder roots in close to the trunk already. I'm advocating pruning part of the roots back close to the tree which stimulates this while the tree gets by on the remainder. Iterating a big circle to a smaller one, just makes the process more protracted, IMHO.
 
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I’m all for trying out native species, but I don’t know if I could get past that graft. Too bad because you have the size you need for the needles. I think I would go Frankenstein on it and graft some sort of dwarf strobus foliage in just the right places and do some seedling graft/ ground layering with wild type strobus in an attempt to get it off of the graft. That is assuming I am right about the graft thing.. if not I would concur with 0so.
 
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#9
You're awesome 0soyoung
Yes, kind of obvious isn't it?
;) Yes you are.

Now I do need a little clarification on a part of your reply here.
Fall shoot pruning, vs keeping foliage for vigour as long as possible, a previous post.
I think I will be taking your advice to heart and follow precisely
your outline, best I can understand. I've read through BVF world press free portion, played Ryans
videos in the past, and have Bonsai Today Master Series PINES book (which advocates Spring and Summer shoot pruning),
I get overwhelmed, and you certainly don't see me giving much input on styling pines on here either. Mostly questions.

Back to the clarification, is this still, a year that I would both begin wedging the roots now,
and also shoot prune this Fall, wedge next year alternately and begin stage 1 of mass reduction?

Would I leave shoots alone (and candles next year) on the portions to keep permanently for vigours' sake, lifting in mind?
...or is this where I shoot be fine tuning and let the rest grow, or tune all the strong and weak areas regardless of whether to keep or not?
I think these are a couple of fair questions for many to consider really. I mean they're not stupid questions
and demonstrate that I do care and trying to learn BEFORE I go drastic and ask after I get in too deep. I see deep doo doo now and then here.
 
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#10
I’m all for trying out native species, but I don’t know if I could get past that graft. Too bad because you have the size you need for the needles. I think I would go Frankenstein on it and graft some sort of dwarf strobus foliage in just the right places and do some seedling graft/ ground layering with wild type strobus in an attempt to get it off of the graft. That is assuming I am right about the graft thing.. if not I would concur with 0so.
You know, as I posted the OP here, I started to say EWP, just for the fact of the needle length and lack of blue colour.
I've been adamant that this is on its own roots, but you're doubling down on that, and making me give pause to the thought.
I know WP typical barks up around what 20 years? I think the tree is no less than 16, 17 years old probably more, since I worked
the roots and foliage both, in 2009.
2 14 09 019.jpg

This was dated 2/14/2009 and I fail to see the graft.

2 W Pines in ground.jpg

This picture was Fall 2008 of both of the trees I bought probably 2006-07.
This pic was emailed to John Romano at New England Bonsai and he gave me a little advice on it.
None that I remember, but was the closest thing I could get to a work shop and a waste of money really.

As you can see, they've not gained height much at all since then, and not so much at my hand.
I've had very little influence on the height of these.
I strain to understand how this could be EWP and remain so short, and remember the tag reading dwarf.
This is not a tree you would plant to harvest for quick soft lumber by any means.

On the other hand, I have a landscape dwarf WP next to this in the yard, you may've caught a glimpse of the
foliage in the OP, with nice bluish short needles. It is ~8' tall now, and was 6' I suppose 8 yrs ago.
Awesome blue foliage, but it grows taller than this dwarf.

Like I said I'm not very knowledgable on pines, so if indeed it is grafted, I apologize.

Grafting from the tree beside it would be cool. I've never grafted anything, so as bad as this one looks
maybe that could be a plan B if plan A fails, but the tree lives.
 

0soyoung

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Fall shoot pruning, vs keeping foliage for vigour as long as possible, a previous post.
I think I will be taking your advice to heart and follow precisely
your outline, best I can understand. I've read through BVF world press free portion, played Ryans
videos in the past, and have Bonsai Today Master Series PINES book (which advocates Spring and Summer shoot pruning),
I get overwhelmed, and you certainly don't see me giving much input on styling pines on here either. Mostly questions.
I understand. I've struggled with it for some time and still have the responses of different species throw me for a loop. Let me be clear, the procedure I detailed is for pinus strobus, Eastern white pine. Other species don't do exactly what it does.
I suggest that you focus on understanding the standard Japanese white pine technique because it can be done to any species of pine.
The exciting candle cutting for JBP/JRP can be done with only a very few other species and with some like p. nigra it seems to be very dependent on timing - too late and one has a branch with no buds at all.

It just turns out, IMHO, that one can use either or both of these two 'classic' techniques and then some on EWP. Again, what I've outlined is only for pinus strobus, Eastern white pine. Dendrology is not my strong suit, but I it sure looks like you've got a p. strobus to me. Virginia Tech has a nice dendrology resource on the web - you might check it out and make sure it isn't something else before you get into deep do do.

... is this still, a year that I would both begin wedging the roots now,
and also shoot prune this Fall, wedge next year alternately and begin stage 1 of mass reduction?

Would I leave shoots alone (and candles next year) on the portions to keep permanently for vigours' sake, lifting in mind?
...or is this where I shoot be fine tuning and let the rest grow, or tune all the strong and weak areas regardless of whether to keep or not?
You seemed to indicate you wanted to get on with making a bonsai of this, so I outlined just what I would do in your stead. Yes, do the partial root pruning now. Later, in the fall, this year partially prune the shoots - ahhhhh, :oops:
I omitted that when you partially prune the shoots late this fall, keep 6 or so rows of fascicles on this year's shoots. Next spring you will have buds to cut back to.

At any rate, go out and do the partial root pruning tomorrow. It is maybe an hours worth of work and it will be done. It will be okay for any pine, btw.
Step 2 = Verify it is indeed a pinus strobus before, lets say, the end of September (I'm betting first frost is about Halloween for you).
Step 3 = If you are satisfied that it absolutely, positively is a p. strobus, you can do partial shoot pruning and reduction of the 'sacrifice' in early/mid October. If it isn't p. strobus, you won't. We can go over this foliage trimming again exactly what you will do when the time is closer, if you want (say c.a. 1 October 2019).

There is nothing more to think about, worry about, plan for now - EZPZ.

,,, trying to learn BEFORE I go drastic and ask after I get in too deep. I see deep doo doo now and then here.
Ah yes, those 'ah shit' moments :eek:
I hate them, but it seems that they are necessary to get me to pay attention.

I've also noticed that the more dire/terrifying these moments are, the more cherished/honored are the memories - they become the stories told and retold over a beer, glass of wine, sitting by a fire, or just to break the clumsy silence at a stuffy party. The other times are just too boring in retelling.
 
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@Japonicus, I mean to be helpful, not overbearing or condescending. Hopefully I am not coming across in either of those reprehensible ways.
Like I said, you're awesome. Your helps are cherished.

From what I read on pines it isn't uncommon for many to become overwhelmed
with techniques. I can read my book on pines, go outside and as I begin to apply these techniques
that are outlined without any respect to the past and limited on future direction as if they are applied
to all BP or all WP in any state of development (depending on which pine I'm reading about WP or BP),
then I read on BN here, I can't do all these things to all of that species, any and every year, and it does indeed
overwhelm one with limited results in their past. Hopefully, we can turn this around somewhat, and I keep my
pines limited to what I have, so I can concentrate on getting it right, and for the right reasons. Not just happenstance.

I'm fixin to map and wedge out the roots today. I'm assuming about 12", beginning ~2" out from the trunk
would be a good start for a pie slice?
 

0soyoung

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I'm fixin to map and wedge out the roots today. I'm assuming about 12", beginning ~2" out from the trunk
would be a good start for a pie slice?
I don't think you need to go as close as 2" from the trunk. When you prune a root, it not only pops new roots from the cut, but it also sprouts some new roots along its length closer to the trunk.
I do this with a sharp spade, so I'm sliding the blade into the ground just inside the edge of the canopy - about the 'drip line' as arborists call it (any closer and the spade handle and the tree's foliage would be involved in a major conflict). Then I do it again 6" to 12" outside of that and digging out the roots in between. Then, I simply throw the dirt back in after culling all the root pieces.

Regardless of how you go about it, we're just trying to chop off some roots and then give them some room to grow from those chopped ends. The inner cut, though, does dictate the size of pot/box you will need for it when you lift it a couple of years from now (which I think is another argument for choosing to root prune around about the drip line).

Hopefully, we can turn this around somewhat, and I keep my
pines limited to what I have, so I can concentrate on getting it right, and for the right reasons. Not just happenstance.
Well, EWP is marvelous for this - it responds to everything and conforms to a simple model of how trees work. JBP is the only tree that maybe out does it in this regard and that is because it will also bud from bare wood.
I'm patient ($$@#$%##!!! :mad::p lol) - so I'm intending to first allow what we're doing to get settled in your mind, then we can talk of what I know about others and my methodology for figuring it out for myself.
 
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#15
(any closer and the spade handle and the tree's foliage would be involved in a major conflict).
--------------------------------------
The inner cut, though, does dictate the size of pot/box you will need for it when you lift it a couple of years from now (which I think is another argument for choosing to root prune around about the drip line).
Yes! These 2 ideas I went over in my mind as I conjured up a plan of attack in my mind. Stretched out for a break of the weeks' stressors
and mulled it over in my mind. Drip line and handle conflict, then I also remembered...

It is planted on a 12 x 12" porcelain tile. On the uphill side 4" deep and as little as 1.5" deep after cultivating the top soil on the lower left side.
This means most of the roots are way away from the trunk. Does this change your plan of attack ATM?
Had I not been on the forum, I would've simply lifted the tree at potting time, removed the roots extending longer
than the size of the intended pot, amended with some grit, and repeated this process each year or two, until I felt it was ready to lift permanently.
Since I am on this forum now, I have the likes of your experience to correct me when I falter...I hope.
 
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#16
Here's a pic after cutting the grass there and cultivating the top soil. Again the smooth band of bark I'm pretty sure is where
a plant tag was too snug, creating a tourniquet. The top of the bark above the band line, is higher than the bottom of branch #1.
If you feel this is grafted, do tell.

DSC_2309.JPG
 

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It is planted on a 12 x 12" porcelain tile. On the uphill side 4" deep and as little as 1.5" deep after cultivating the top soil on the lower left side.
This means most of the roots are way away from the trunk. Does this change your plan of attack ATM?
Had I not been on the forum, I would've simply lifted the tree at potting time, removed the roots extending longer
than the size of the intended pot, amended with some grit, and repeated this process each year or two, until I felt it was ready to lift permanently.
Since I am on this forum now, I have the likes of your experience to correct me when I falter...I hope.
You really downplay your capabilities! You are thinking, man! Your are a thinking man. You are planning, man :D:cool:
So, is this just 'fear of flying'? Ain't dunnit b4?

It changes my my 'plan' only to the extent that you're never going to get a spade though that tile! I do see you have some smaller roots above the tile - that's good. My only concern is that all the roots are concentrated in one area. Then you'll have to get down on your hands and knees and carefully prune about half of them. We just don't want to get into a situation where there is only one root left to nourish the tree, for instance.

I look forward to hearing how it went today.

Your plan to have lifted and root pruned it every year is a great way to quickly develop a root pad, but it makes having it in the ground pointless, IMHO. In the ground would then just a convenience to save you from having to water every day (or as often as you would in a pot). I don't know what others have told you, but no matter, this is how I see it. Now, if you've got your face in your palm and are shaking your head back an forth, fill me in. I'm an old dog, but I've never stopped learning new tricks. 🐕
 
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#18
You really downplay your capabilities! You are thinking, man! Your are a thinking man. You are planning, man :D:cool:
So, is this just 'fear of flying'? Ain't dunnit b4?
I know, I always overthink and overbuild things. A group of elephants could stand on my entry stairs if there were room.
I look forward to hearing how it went today.

Your plan to have lifted and root pruned it every year is a great way to quickly develop a root pad, but it makes having it in the ground pointless, IMHO. In the ground would then just a convenience to save you from having to water every day (or as often as you would in a pot). I don't know what others have told you, but no matter, this is how I see it. Now, if you've got your face in your palm and are shaking your head back an forth, fill me in. I'm an old dog, but I've never stopped learning new tricks. 🐕
To clarify lifting each year, is once it it is ready to lift. Once the girth is achieved, then, begin lifting and root pruning
and putting it back into the ground reducing with each lift, skipping a year if cautious, adding grit, prepping for potting/boxing up.
That's just how I would have approached this, beginning now, or Spring I should say, but since you coached me on this, here we go...

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"mapped"

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never thought I'd get nearly a wheel barrow full from 4 wedges.

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came out from the tile and dug down to 8-9" depth from soil line.

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I put a wooden wedge at the drip line where I began the wedge and turned IN 2 aluminum plant tags, to mark the wedge taken for future reference.

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Now we wait for Fall pruning pruning, but will give it a K-L-N rooting concentrate drench for the time being. Then again in a couple of weeks.
The tags and wooden wedges will do till I can get some cheap tent stakes.
 

0soyoung

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#19
Woo hoo! I can't tell, but I assume you feel like you got about half of the roots. Very nicely organized work, btw. Now new roots will grow and will continue to do so until the soil temp is solidly below 40F. It is great that you marked exactly where you pruned this year because this time next year you want to poke around and be sure there are vigorous roots there (where you just pruned) - if not, we delay for another year (but I don't expect this to be the case).

Okay, now understand what your plan was. Nothing wrong with it. I would choose to do it in a pot, but it is just a matter of convenience or simply that is the way you want(ed) to do it, IMHO.
 
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#20
Woo hoo! I can't tell, but I assume you feel like you got about half of the roots. Very nicely organized work, btw. Now new roots will grow and will continue to do so until the soil temp is solidly below 40F. It is great that you marked exactly where you pruned this year because this time next year you want to poke around and be sure there are vigorous roots there (where you just pruned) - if not, we delay for another year (but I don't expect this to be the case).

Okay, now understand what your plan was. Nothing wrong with it. I would choose to do it in a pot, but it is just a matter of convenience or simply that is the way you want(ed) to do it, IMHO.
Looking for a fence to duck behind (the character Wilson on Tim Allen's Tool Time) no I don't feel like I got 1/2 of the roots.
It just felt like I will be getting at the biggest part of the roots next year.

I got a few, I lopped off at least half of or even more, of what few were available.
You were right, the area down hill from the trunk, left side, does have the majority of the roots.
It is the side with less soil on top of the tile, so she had to send roots further/deeper out for moisture.
What was most fine, nearest the trunk, I cut 1/2 or so of those off. A couple overlappers from the wedge not taken
were cut off as well just to get the finer roots started, more close in hopefully. Especially since I felt that I got too few roots.
This may take a few years to chase back unless I lift it entirely one Spring and root prune all the way around.

I amended the soil with about 30% or less of the crushed granite in the bag there. Chicken grower grit it is.
I figured the 8822 DE would hold too much moisture, and have plenty of it, but resisted the temptation.
Sorry for so many questions...but wait...there's more! LOL Have a swell evening @0soyoung