Yamadori aftercare in the ground?

[peterbone]

I've read a lot about yamadori collecting and techniques online and in books. The advice always seems to be to plant in a training pot. The latest advice is to use the smallest container that the roots fit into. However, I've almost never seen it recommended to transplant newly collected trees into the ground and I wonder why this is? It seems to me that most collected trees have a lot of recovery and growth ahead of them and that's surely going to happen quicker in the ground. I have some raised beds that I could use for this purpose. It would speed up growing new leaders and healing chops, especially for larger trees with low chops and no branches. If necessary I could build a polytunnel over them to increase humidity. However, before I try it I'd like to know if there are any down sides that I've not considered?

Here's the one source where something similar is mentioned. It also mentions lack of oxygen in the ground but is that really a problem if a particle based substrate is used?
https://anijhuis.com/category/collecting-yamadori/

 

[Tidal Bonsai]

I wanted to preface this by saying I have never collected. However, I do know that for conifers you want to work our native soil to improve aeration in a shallower container.

For deciduous, if you want it to grow out in the ground, why would you even collect it? Just cut back the branches and leave it for another year.

 

[peterbone]

For deciduous, if you want it to grow out in the ground, why would you even collect it? Just cut back the branches and leave it for another year.

The first reason is because it may be in a remote location. By bringing it to your garden you can start to train the upper part of the tree with wire, etc. The second reason is that by collecting it you cut through the large roots and start the process of reducing the rootball. Thirdly, a lot of the trees I collect are from woodland and they probably wouldn't get enough light after chopping. I've tried this before and the tree has become too weak to ever collect. In the garden I can provide optimum light, humidity, fertiliser, etc.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

With the right substrate, I can see only advantages. In plain soil however.. It forces you to collect the same tree twice.
All my collected plants go straight into grow boxes, with the - maybe overly cautious - idea that roots are restricted that way. If they can run wild, they will. And that would set you back a few seasons. I don't know how much of an issue that is, to be honest. But I'm not risking it.

 

[River's Edge]

I've read a lot about yamadori collecting and techniques online and in books. The advice always seems to be to plant in a training pot. The latest advice is to use the smallest container that the roots fit into. However, I've almost never seen it recommended to transplant newly collected trees into the ground and I wonder why this is? It seems to me that most collected trees have a lot of recovery and growth ahead of them and that's surely going to happen quicker in the ground. I have some raised beds that I could use for this purpose. It would speed up growing new leaders and healing chops, especially for larger trees with low chops and no branches. If necessary I could build a polytunnel over them to increase humidity. However, before I try it I'd like to know if there are any down sides that I've not considered?

Here's the one source where something similar is mentioned. It also mentions lack of oxygen in the ground but is that really a problem if a particle based substrate is used?
https://anijhuis.com/category/collecting-yamadori/

The key to aftercare for collected trees is aftercare. I am not being facetious, just stating the truth. The reason that grow boxes or other large containers are preferred are as follows.
1 adaptability to the specific tree and ability to restrain and or shape the new developing roots, through choice of soil type, particle size, shape, depth etc.
2. Portability, the ability to change location as required, Shade, Sun, humidity, protection from frost, wind etc.
3. Control over watering. Not possible in the ground if heavy rains for example!
In summary, better control over the variables! Being able to respond to changing conditions is an advantage.
The first goal is survival, additional desired outcome is the transition to a very different root structure to enable healthy life in a pot.

 

[bonsaichile]

The key to aftercare for collected trees is aftercare. I am not being facetious, just stating the truth. The reason that grow boxes or other large containers are preferred are as follows.
1 adaptability to the specific tree and ability to restrain and or shape the new developing roots, through choice of soil type, particle size, shape, depth etc.
2. Portability, the ability to change location as required, Shade, Sun, humidity, protection from frost, wind etc.
3. Control over watering. Not possible in the ground if heavy rains for example!
In summary, better control over the variables! Being able to respond to changing conditions is an advantage.
The first goal is survival, additional desired outcome is the transition to a very different root structure to enable healthy life in a pot.

To me, a key advantage for using training pots or grow boxes is the ability to move the tree around. A newly-collected tree should be protected from harsh sunlight, but as it establishes itself in the pot, it will need increasing amounts of sun. A pot gives me the ability of providing that in a way that would be difficult or impractical in the ground.
Also, when I collect, i dont want to grow it out. Partly, one collects as a way to get more advanced material. Collecting seedlings or young trees defeat that purpose, in my opinion.

 

[BrianBay9]

My process was to get the collected tree into a box or pond basket, then bury the box/basket up to the top in a deep bed of pea gravel. It kept the trees stable, kept the roots cool and I could easily assess when the roots were recovered enough to start growing out of their containers. When roots had recovered sufficiently I would prune back to the container and put the trees on the bench.

 

[rockm]

I've read a lot about yamadori collecting and techniques online and in books. The advice always seems to be to plant in a training pot. The latest advice is to use the smallest container that the roots fit into. However, I've almost never seen it recommended to transplant newly collected trees into the ground and I wonder why this is? It seems to me that most collected trees have a lot of recovery and growth ahead of them and that's surely going to happen quicker in the ground. I have some raised beds that I could use for this purpose. It would speed up growing new leaders and healing chops, especially for larger trees with low chops and no branches. If necessary I could build a polytunnel over them to increase humidity. However, before I try it I'd like to know if there are any down sides that I've not considered?

Here's the one source where something similar is mentioned. It also mentions lack of oxygen in the ground but is that really a problem if a particle based substrate is used?
https://anijhuis.com/category/collecting-yamadori/

Bottom line is that I don't want to collect a tree TWICE. Recovery will happen faster in a container with more detailed attention to watering and root regeneration. That can be hit and miss in the ground, as you can't move the tree if need be (like to keep it out of excessive rain/flooding, etc). The soil and hole you've made may actually INHIBIT root regeneration give soil types and roots. Containerizing the plant with decent bonsai soil provides aeration, ability to perform more detailed, effective care --fertilization, specific watering, etc.

All that said, If you're looking to grow out a new leader or apex, I would put the tree into the ground if those additions have to be substantial, however, I wouldn't do it immediately after collection. I'd containerize the tree for at least a year to get it on the road to recovery and to set new buds for possible leaders/shoots.

 

[River's Edge]

My process was to get the collected tree into a box or pond basket, then bury the box/basket up to the top in a deep bed of pea gravel. It kept the trees stable, kept the roots cool and I could easily assess when the roots were recovered enough to start growing out of their containers. When roots had recovered sufficiently I would prune back to the container and put the trees on the bench.

This process would not work for me in my climate, the need to protect newer roots initially over the first winter from frost, and the ability to change location for protection from very hot weather, heavy winds, excess rain. Simply underscores the importantance of adapting process for ones location and resources.
I expect for you depending on the species shade cloth might be required more so than frost protection.

 

[BrianBay9]

This process would not work for me in my climate, the need to protect newer roots initially over the first winter from frost, and the ability to change location for protection from very hot weather, heavy winds, excess rain. Simply underscores the importantance of adapting process for ones location and resources.
I expect for you depending on the species shade cloth might be required more so than frost protection.

Yeah, should have mentioned where I was and what I was collecting. At the time I was living in the front range, Colorado, collecting Ponderosa and Lodgepole pine. Recovery bed was in a narrow side yard protected from wind.

 

[peterbone]

To me, a key advantage for using training pots or grow boxes is the ability to move the tree around. A newly-collected tree should be protected from harsh sunlight, but as it establishes itself in the pot, it will need increasing amounts of sun. A pot gives me the ability of providing that in a way that would be difficult or impractical in the ground.
Also, when I collect, i dont want to grow it out. Partly, one collects as a way to get more advanced material. Collecting seedlings or young trees defeat that purpose, in my opinion.

Thanks. I agree with the first part. It makes sense to be able to move the tree, however shade can easily be provided and then removed later.

Maybe you misunderstand my material though. I'm collecting large trees, not small ones, so I don't want to grow out to develop a thicker trunk. However, because they're quite large and have had big chops it will take a long time for the new leaders to thicken enough to blend with the original trunk convincingly.

Thanks to everyone else for your comments. It has helped.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I have had better luck potting conifers in small containers, and planting deciduous trees in the ground for a year.