Yamadori Discussion

Smoke

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As to the Yamadori discussion specifically; I think there is something that is neglected even here, without an artistic approach to the material I don't care how good the Yamadori is, or how old, or anything else about it, if the work that is done is not done artistically it will just be another piece of mediocre, albeit very old, middle of the road bonsai.

The argument that the very best bonsai in the world are Yamadori is true but there is something else true here; those very best Yamadori were styled and developed by the very best artists in the world. So it is nice and partially true that a serious bonsaist should work on Yamadori it is also true that Charlie Brown will probably not make a great bonsai out of a great Yamadori. It is a fallacy to think that the possession of a great piece of Yamadori stock is going to somehow make the owner, a great bonsai artist. A Yamadori does not come with some mystical blessing of talent to make it into a great bonsai. If you have not learned the skills, developed an eye for style or obtained the techniques necessary to make possible the impossible then it would be best to stay away from this stuff till you do.


First paragraph not withstanding, I read this a couple of times. Who could disagree with anything written. All of it makes sense. Mr Vance has stated some pretty common sense issues and delivered them sussinctly and to the point.

but....you knew it was coming... It is delivered once again in a pont of view that is one sided. Not all things are equal here. So with all things being equal I will share my thoughts and observations.

Firstly I have read this thread with delight over a couple nights. I can tell by the posters and where they live how they fall on the issue of collected material. Those that have acesss to real good yamadori live and swear by it and those that do not have any acesss to it have let us know in no uncertain terms that good nursery material is just as good. Now along comes Dan and writes this piece and some of it seems to cooborate those feelings and "TAH DAH" nursery material is equal.

The rub seems to be that if you have no talent yamadori is not going to give you an upper hand. I agree. No one ever said it would. If you have no talent nursery material is not going to do much good either. So if we can agree that most of us are going to settle for average to above average bonsai in our collection, and all things being equal what is so wrong with wanting my collection to be composed of average bonsai made from 300 year old craggy barked, lighting induced deadwood, twisted branched yamadori. Why would I want to have a collection of average store bought ramrod straight nursery grower branches on a untapering young barked, rootbound nursery plant?

Is the glass half full or half empty here?

I do respectfully disagree with the parts about ametures not working with the best possible material if it is something that is within their rights and means to do. I don't believe anyone has the right to tell someone they can't do something if they wish to. If it goes against you own moral feeling or your ideals, tuff toenails.

Cheers, Al
 

fwhou

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Yamadori and the Common Man.....

I found it inspiring that he thinks very highly of the work Nick Lenz has done as well.

I find myself in agreement with most of what he said about yamadori, namely that it has a valid place in bonsai, but it is not the has all and be all that many people make it out to be.

The worth of a bonsai is in the end presentation, not the beginning.


Will

I have come to believe bonsai is a very personal art. I have done a bit of collecting, of both "boring" and "exciting" wild trees. The boring ones I used to help me understand techniques better, like ramification.
These trees are not by any stretch of the same caliber as what Walter Pall or Danny Use has.
The key question is: do you enjoy working on them, and can you learn anything from them to help with your personal understanding of your art?
Someone on this forum pointed out that good material is good material, whether it is from a nursery or wild yamadori....which makes it all the easier for us mere mortals to find stuff we want to work on and can enjoy!
Flex
 

Asus101

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It is always the same four people. I don't understand this idea that something has to be dragged into the ditch, spat upon, stomped on and generally pilloried. If I had the time and the inclination I am tempted to go to all threads that I have no interest in and do the same that some have done here. Just because you (generically speaking) think the thread has no merit are you not demonstrating your ignorance and rudeness by interrupting those who are getting something out of the discussion by coming on the scene with dead horse arguments, and other mindless dribble? If you want to argue the merit, or lack there of,--go for it, that's what discussions are for. Anything less is a waste of your time and our time.

There is what i was trying to say. Seeing people fight each other over opinion, and not give anything constructive is useless information. A waste of bandwith.
 

Boondock

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It is always the same four people.

Since I have not posted on this forum for 4 or 5 months, I am safe to feel like I am not one of "same four people"


If I had the time and the inclination I am tempted to go to all threads that I have no interest in and do the same that some have done here.

This statement really made me think about the possibility that "negativity", whether premeditated (like the honorable Vance Wood said), or totally non-intentional, could affect the collective conscientious of the bonsai world or at least affect "forums" on the net, who's esoteric topic (like bonsai) are generally fairly benign and frequented by a very small number of people per day.

This concept of going in and causing trouble for the sole intention of creating chaos is probably not what is happening here, but it amuses me to visualize "a person" sitting in front of a computer, on a forum about something other than bonsai, say... Triumph Motorcycles

Just deciding to find threads, who's topic is judged to be "not interesting", and TROLLING for the sole purpose of creating chaos.

um...

we already have a name for that...
 
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It is always the same four people. I don't understand this idea that something has to be dragged into the ditch, spat upon, stomped on and generally pilloried. If I had the time and the inclination I am tempted to go to all threads that I have no interest in and do the same that some have done here. Just because you (generically speaking) think the thread has no merit are you not demonstrating your ignorance and rudeness by interrupting those who are getting something out of the discussion by coming on the scene with dead horse arguments, and other mindless dribble? If you want to argue the merit, or lack there of,--go for it, that's what discussions are for. Anything less is a waste of your time and our time.

As far as the discussion of Yamadori is concerned I think it has been productive, intelligent, diverse and generally without ill will except for the questionable contributions by the same four mentioned above.

Let's look at it logically as reasonable people; if I think something is crapola I generally don't pick it up and put it on my plate, neither do I step in it.

Look, I'm sorry my little joke about a dead horse got so blown out of proportion. I just thought we had pretty well covered the subject.
 
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Since I have not posted on this forum for 4 or 5 months, I am safe to feel like I am not one of "same four people"




This statement really made me think about the possibility that "negativity", whether premeditated (like the honorable Vance Wood said), or totally non-intentional, could affect the collective conscientious of the bonsai world or at least affect "forums" on the net, who's esoteric topic (like bonsai) are generally fairly benign and frequented by a very small number of people per day.

This concept of going in and causing trouble for the sole intention of creating chaos is probably not what is happening here, but it amuses me to visualize "a person" sitting in front of a computer, on a forum about something other than bonsai, say... Triumph Motorcycles

Just deciding to find threads, who's topic is judged to be "not interesting", and TROLLING for the sole purpose of creating chaos.

um...

we already have a name for that...

I'm sorry, the four would be whom? Me, Will, Vance, and whom?
 
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Here's all I really have to say about this tempest in a teapot. Making the statement that something has been "done to death" should be no cause for the kind of attacks we have seen here. If you feel something substantive has been added to the old arguments, fine. Just because I don't think so, so much, doesn't mean that there is nothing in here that I would like to respond to. So I guess I'm not sure what the explosion was all about.

Sorry I brought it up.

Edit: Asus, sorry I posted three times. Responding to many different things is confusing in one post, I think.
 

Asus101

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Edit: Asus, sorry I posted three times. Responding to many different things is confusing in one post, I think.


:)


When it comes down to it, bonsai is not a huge thing. It seems most bonsai net users from western bonsai can all be found on the same forums. Is petty in fighting and "e-Wang" flashing really needed?

As a beginner i came here looking for information, now i find it else were and only come here to see Internet tough guys start fights between each other.
 
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Look, I'm sorry my little joke about a dead horse got so blown out of proportion. I just thought we had pretty well covered the subject.
Once again, it really doesn't matter what you think, if a group of people are having a discussion, let them, what harm does it do you? Who made you the "enough of this topic" moderator?

Here's all I really have to say about this tempest in a teapot. Making the statement that something has been "done to death" should be no cause for the kind of attacks we have seen here. If you feel something substantive has been added to the old arguments, fine. Just because I don't think so, so much, doesn't mean that there is nothing in here that I would like to respond to. So I guess I'm not sure what the explosion was all about.
It was about you jumping in and saying the discussion was useless, if you really feel that way, ignore it, don't rush in to say so, what does that add to the discussion. But you know this, you're not stupid and neither are we, this tactic of yours to disrupt conversation is well known and quite old.

Asus, sorry I posted three times. Responding to many different things is confusing in one post, I think.
Chris, The button that says "MQ" is a useful tool, it allows you to quote from numerous threads at the same time.



So now that the usual few people have whined and cried about how this topic isn't fit for discussion....can we get on with it or have they beat the horse off its path again?


Will

damnant quod non intelligunt
(they condemn what they don't understand)
 
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I found Dan's statement "In any case, collected material is by no means the only source of material that will result in good bonsai. Many of the finest classical bonsai have been created from cultivated material. Notably, some of the great broom style zelkovas, some of the mountain and trident maples and a host of other examples can easily be seen if one refers to some of the earlier copies of the Japanese exhibition souvenir books." to be interesting as there is no doubting his experience or influence in the bonsai community.

One of the styles of bonsai that is often left out of these discussions is the forest or group planting, although there are exceptions, it seems the vast majority of these creations are created with younger material, and often from nursery stock.


Will
 

Vance Wood

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I found Dan's statement "In any case, collected material is by no means the only source of material that will result in good bonsai. Many of the finest classical bonsai have been created from cultivated material. Notably, some of the great broom style zelkovas, some of the mountain and trident maples and a host of other examples can easily be seen if one refers to some of the earlier copies of the Japanese exhibition souvenir books." to be interesting as there is no doubting his experience or influence in the bonsai community.

One of the styles of bonsai that is often left out of these discussions is the forest or group planting, although there are exceptions, it seems the vast majority of these creations are created with younger material, and often from nursery stock.


Will

Fearing that this may already have been pointed out and knowing that if this is so some will gleefully illustrate my error, I know of no example/examples of Japanese Maple, Trident Maple or Zelkova that are from collected material which are posted by "The Great Ones". Most are field grown and some (I have the book) are grown from seed.
 

Smoke

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Fearing that this may already have been pointed out and knowing that if this is so some will gleefully illustrate my error, I know of no example/examples of Japanese Maple, Trident Maple or Zelkova that are from collected material which are posted by "The Great Ones". Most are field grown and some (I have the book) are grown from seed.

All things being equal, who is whom? Possibly Japanese, Chinese or Korean masters that have made a lifelong commitment to growing material for bonsai or Monrovia?
 
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The question yet to be answered was I believe, does anyone have an example of Japanese Maple, Trident Maple, or Zelkova that are from collected material which are posted by "The Great Ones"


Will
 

Attila Soos

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Japanese, Chinese or Korean masters that have made a lifelong commitment to growing material for bonsai or Monrovia?

Good point,

I've noticed that when we defend the "nursery side of bonsai sources", we bring up as examples, bonsai grown from seed or cutting in Japanese and Chinese bonsai nurseries.
Thes Asian nursery sources have nothing to do with our subject: we are talking about Western plant nurseries, not Asian bonsai nurseries, for heaven's sake.
Nobody ever said here that nursery sources from bonsai nurseries are bad. Quite the opposite! Bonsai nursery material (Asian or Western) is the best for 90% of bonsai practitioners. For the other 10%, yamadori is the best way to use their talent.
 

Smoke

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Good point,

I've noticed that when we defend the "nursery side of bonsai sources", we bring up as examples, bonsai grown from seed or cutting in Japanese and Chinese bonsai nurseries.
Thes Asian nursery sources have nothing to do with our subject: we are talking about Western plant nurseries, not Asian bonsai nurseries, for heaven's sake.
Nobody ever said here that nursery sources from bonsai nurseries are bad. Quite the opposite! Bonsai nursery material (Asian or Western) is the best for 90% of bonsai practitioners. For the other 10%, yamadori is the best way to use their talent.

Actually Atilla my post had to do with Vance's use of the term "the Great One's". I have to assume he is meaning the Asian master's. If I am wrong I am sure Vance will correct me.

Thanks, Al

BTW, Imported Asian material is almost more easily obtainable in the USA than field grown material from private domestic growers. Places like Brussel's and New England along with Bonsai Northwest do a bang up job at marketing.

Also just where do you feel you fall in the ratio? The 10 percent or the 90 percent. I have no problem being in the 10 percent whether I make the best use of it or not;)
 

Vance Wood

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Actually Atilla my post had to do with Vance's use of the term "the Great One's". I have to assume he is meaning the Asian master's. If I am wrong I am sure Vance will correct me.

Thanks, Al

BTW, Imported Asian material is almost more easily obtainable in the USA than field grown material from private domestic growers. Places like Brussel's and New England along with Bonsai Northwest do a bang up job at marketing.

Also just where do you feel you fall in the ratio? The 10 percent or the 90 percent. I have no problem being in the 10 percent whether I make the best use of it or not;)

My reference to "The Great Ones" was pointed at people like Kimura, Walter Pall, a host of European and yes, Asian masters. There are some good American masters but I sill have problems recognizing anyone on this Continent that is of the same caliber as those mentioned above.

As to material; boy---there is a subject that needs to be developed. There are so many species of trees in North America that have the potential of bonsai greatness, and so few people utilizing them. Of course there are the wonderful California and Rocky Mountain Junipers but beyond those two trees you seldom see much in the way of collected stuff-- except occasionally. I don't wish to dig into another subject that would possibly be fodder for another thread but in the discussion of Yamadori over all, with all the praising of the medium we see precious little of it outside of the two Junipers, Ponderosa Pine, Bald Cypress and Button Wood. From my collecting experience from many years ago I can tell you that Douglas Fir and Lodge Pole Pine make excellent bonsai but for some reason no one is collecting them. This puzzles me because Doug Fir is one of the most common conifers on the continent. Since becoming envolved with Internet forums I remember seeing a collected Doug Fir about ten years ago. To date the owner has not posted any update of the tree since the original post which was an amazing tree. I hope the tree was not lost.
 
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JasonG

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My reference to "The Great Ones" was pointed at people like Kimura, Walter Pall, a host of European and yes, Asian masters. There are some good American masters but I sill have problems recognizing anyone on this Continent that is of the same caliber as those mentioned above.

As to material; boy---there is a subject that needs to be developed. There are so many species of trees in North America that have the potential of bonsai greatness, and so few people utilizing them. Of course there are the wonderful California and Rocky Mountain Junipers but beyond those two trees you seldom see much in the way of collected stuff-- except occasionally. I don't wish to dig into another subject that would possibly be fodder for another thread but in the discussion of Yamadori over all, with all the praising of the medium we see precious little of it outside of the two Junipers, Ponderosa Pine, Bald Cypress and Button Wood. From my collecting experience from many years ago I can tell you that Douglas Fir and Lodge Pole Pine make excellent bonsai but for some reason no one is collecting them. This puzzles me because Doug Fir is one of the most common conifers on the continent. Since becoming envolved with Internet forums I remember seeing a collected Doug Fir about ten years ago. To date the owner has not posted any update of the tree since the original post which was an amazing tree. I hope the tree was not lost.


Hi Vance,

Here in NW Oregon we are collecting a ton of Sub Alpine fir (the best of the fir species), Lodgepole Pine, Mt. Hemlock (My favorite of the native species) and some decidous stuff. As to your comments on Doug fir, well I have seen 2 out of hundered of thousands that were worhty of bonsai. They tend to be more of an upright growing timber tree, even in very harsh conditions. Sub Alpines with grow like we want for bonsai in the harsh conditions much better than douglas fir. With that said I do know of 2 nice Doug Firs in a collection locally. Other than that they are very rare.
Lodgepoles, nice ones, are pretty common in bonsai in the NW. They are nice, easy to work with, and in the harsh areas are fairly common.
Give me 5 yrs and I will have some very high quality lodgepoles, fir, and hemlocks to show. Rocky Mt Junipers are very plentiful at OB right now. That is the number 1 seller, everyone wants the RMJ and we are selling quite a few of them.

Give us young guys a few years and we will suprise a bunch of people with what we are doing here in the NW, and when the big national show makes its way to the west coast it will be good for us!

Jason
 

Vance Wood

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Hi Vance,

Here in NW Oregon we are collecting a ton of Sub Alpine fir (the best of the fir species), Lodgepole Pine, Mt. Hemlock (My favorite of the native species) and some decidous stuff. As to your comments on Doug fir, well I have seen 2 out of hundered of thousands that were worhty of bonsai. They tend to be more of an upright growing timber tree, even in very harsh conditions. Sub Alpines with grow like we want for bonsai in the harsh conditions much better than douglas fir. With that said I do know of 2 nice Doug Firs in a collection locally. Other than that they are very rare.
Lodgepoles, nice ones, are pretty common in bonsai in the NW. They are nice, easy to work with, and in the harsh areas are fairly common.
Give me 5 yrs and I will have some very high quality lodgepoles, fir, and hemlocks to show. Rocky Mt Junipers are very plentiful at OB right now. That is the number 1 seller, everyone wants the RMJ and we are selling quite a few of them.

Give us young guys a few years and we will suprise a bunch of people with what we are doing here in the NW, and when the big national show makes its way to the west coast it will be good for us!

Jason

That's the problem with a lot of you guys. You throw out teasers but do not post the work in progress, I know it takes time to make a bonsai I am not critical of work in progress put it out there for crying out loud.
 
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