Yamadori Discussion
- Thread starter Anonymous User
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rlist
Shohin
Amen, save the spelling of amateurs...
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
I find it odd that a group of bonsai enthusiasts can think they are having an intelligent discussion about bonsai material and what it takes to make a masterpiece when everyone in the discussion with the exception of Walter has yet to produce a masterpiece. If you really want to know about material and it's worth as to what makes better bonsai, (on the average) move this discussion to IBC where it would be discussed by people that have actually produced masterpiece bonsai. Reading this discussion here is like reading an argument between Fred Flintstone and Homer Simpson discussing whether "Dark Matter" is neutrino's or burnt toast.
I think the likes of Robert Steven, Walter Pall, Karl Thier, Tony Tickle, Suthin Suksolvisit, Mario Komsta and Min Hsuan Lo could hold an intelligent discussion on what it takes to produce a masterpiece bonsai. These men converse there daily and are not shy about giving opinions about many things. The big difference with these fellows is that they can have a discussion about this type of thing without all the genu flexing and oneupsmanship. They have nothing to prove with discussion as they have already shown us with all their work. Something I would like to see a whole lot more of here.
If your going to have a discussion with me about building a house, you better be doing it from the street corner of the last tract you just finished.
I decided to look at some contests on the forums. I looked to the first contest I did on bonsaiTALK. After much discussion it was decided to have a 20.00 nursery stock contest. Why? Well most people have access to a nursery or box store and 20.00 kept in most of the forum. Some wanted collected stock. This was not allowed. Why? Because those that didn't have access to it felt that those that did would have an unfair advantage. If what some perport to be true than a person with collected material would have no more advantage than someone with good nursery material, what would be the harm?
These contests went on for a time or two and I felt that the contests were not a good representation of what bonsai was all about. The same thing was tried at bonsaiCHAT and again the contest was held with nursery material and a price maximum again imposed.
Knowledge of Bonsai decides to enter the contest fray with a progressive contest emphasizing the actual methods used to style the bonsai. Once again the contest is broken down into divisions. Why all the divisions? I thought bonsai was about the tree, not the material. Somebody please have a contest and just make the best tree from the best stock. No divisions on where from, no price limits. Just a contest on best tree period. BTW in the professional catagory there were three catagories for material.
Collected
Raw Stock
Pre Bonsai
Was anybody shocked that in the professional catagory there was not one entry from the Raw Stock catagory. This is the catagory that would let someone make a tree from a regular nursery outlet or Home Depot. I think these professionals know something that is tryin to be said here.
I'm not tryin to prove anything or get into this discussion any deeper than I already have. I know where I stand and could care less where anyone else gets their stuff. But I thought these reflections might be noteworthy.
Cheers, Al
I think the likes of Robert Steven, Walter Pall, Karl Thier, Tony Tickle, Suthin Suksolvisit, Mario Komsta and Min Hsuan Lo could hold an intelligent discussion on what it takes to produce a masterpiece bonsai. These men converse there daily and are not shy about giving opinions about many things. The big difference with these fellows is that they can have a discussion about this type of thing without all the genu flexing and oneupsmanship. They have nothing to prove with discussion as they have already shown us with all their work. Something I would like to see a whole lot more of here.
If your going to have a discussion with me about building a house, you better be doing it from the street corner of the last tract you just finished.
I decided to look at some contests on the forums. I looked to the first contest I did on bonsaiTALK. After much discussion it was decided to have a 20.00 nursery stock contest. Why? Well most people have access to a nursery or box store and 20.00 kept in most of the forum. Some wanted collected stock. This was not allowed. Why? Because those that didn't have access to it felt that those that did would have an unfair advantage. If what some perport to be true than a person with collected material would have no more advantage than someone with good nursery material, what would be the harm?
These contests went on for a time or two and I felt that the contests were not a good representation of what bonsai was all about. The same thing was tried at bonsaiCHAT and again the contest was held with nursery material and a price maximum again imposed.
Knowledge of Bonsai decides to enter the contest fray with a progressive contest emphasizing the actual methods used to style the bonsai. Once again the contest is broken down into divisions. Why all the divisions? I thought bonsai was about the tree, not the material. Somebody please have a contest and just make the best tree from the best stock. No divisions on where from, no price limits. Just a contest on best tree period. BTW in the professional catagory there were three catagories for material.
Collected
Raw Stock
Pre Bonsai
Was anybody shocked that in the professional catagory there was not one entry from the Raw Stock catagory. This is the catagory that would let someone make a tree from a regular nursery outlet or Home Depot. I think these professionals know something that is tryin to be said here.
I'm not tryin to prove anything or get into this discussion any deeper than I already have. I know where I stand and could care less where anyone else gets their stuff. But I thought these reflections might be noteworthy.
Cheers, Al
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Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
Please keep the thread on topic. This is a bonsai site not photoshop 101.
Anonymous User
Banned
This would invalidate you from this discussion as well Al.
Since you brought up Walter's name, let's remember he would be the first to say that a person can be a great critic, writer, organizer, promoter, etc without having created a great bonsai themselves. Talent comes in many forms and every art form is co-dependent on them all.
No sense moving to IBC, as you suggested, Walter Pall, Brent, Peter Warren and others have posted here, quotes from Peter Warren and Dan Barton (an icon of bonsai) have been posted. The very experienced have spoken, what more would you like? There are dozens of interviews at AoB as well as galleries, KoB has blogs from the greats, IBC has discussion which some of the masters participate in, but the discussion is here, where I posted it. I could have well posted this at AoB or KoB where the moderation would have assured only intelligent response without interruption and the discussion would be seen by those very experienced people who do not post here. However, I put it here because it was relivant to other discussions here and because it had the promise of creating much discussion, it seems I was right about that.
Tell that to the architect, inspectors, planning commission, zoning board, etc. In fact, a rough carpenter would be out of work without all the plumbers, electricians, roofers, finish carpenters, furnace and air conditioning pros, those people mentioned before, and lastly the salespeople who sell the homes.
In response, I would say if you're going to have a discussion with me about building a house, you better remember that without all those people who do not do the actual building, you would be out of work.
Yes, we did this because every other contest allowed only nursery stock and cheap stock at that. Most of the very experience people who we could learn from didn't bother with those. We set a new standard, some of the greatest artists of our time participated in the contest, Bonsai Focus sponsored the contest and featured it in a issue.
By allowing all types of stock with no price limit, we opened the doors for all, each person could enter based on what they did the best. Why did no one enter with nursery stock? Who knows, maybe because finally, other options were entered. Many have said that the decisions made made that contest the best ever on the web.
I have never claimed any source of stock was better than another, to do so would be foolish, the best source of stock is where you currently find great material, this may change, it may not. What I have said was simply that price and location do not assure quality or crap.
Cheers,
Will
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agraham
Shohin
Speaking of Min Hsuan Lo....I found this entry in his blog to be one of the best and most useful bits of information posted on the net.It happens to be relavent to this particular conversation that Will posted too.
http://www.knowledgeofbonsai.org/min_hsuan_lo/index.php
It is posted under the Sereronia(sic) piece and concerns a (I assume) yamadori Murrya(sic) as well as a comment on his ficus.
I hope it is acceptable to quote him since I also provide a link.
"Restyle only two way to choice. Success or Failure. Before succed should
be suffer countless . I have do hundreds test in FICUS, finally show some
magnificent, actually many of them were waste, the same in other variety.
I spent a lot of money to buy this Murrya. I was astonish by the incrediable JIN
& Lifeline. It’s pity, those branches are too BIG & DENSE. I have cut lots of them
, but still looks pale. In my mind, want let it a proudly bonsai. After thinking lots of
time, Cut another 3 branches.
Finally, I know this time—totally fail.
The only way is plant on the ground." Min Hsuan Lo
andy
http://www.knowledgeofbonsai.org/min_hsuan_lo/index.php
It is posted under the Sereronia(sic) piece and concerns a (I assume) yamadori Murrya(sic) as well as a comment on his ficus.
I hope it is acceptable to quote him since I also provide a link.
"Restyle only two way to choice. Success or Failure. Before succed should
be suffer countless . I have do hundreds test in FICUS, finally show some
magnificent, actually many of them were waste, the same in other variety.
I spent a lot of money to buy this Murrya. I was astonish by the incrediable JIN
& Lifeline. It’s pity, those branches are too BIG & DENSE. I have cut lots of them
, but still looks pale. In my mind, want let it a proudly bonsai. After thinking lots of
time, Cut another 3 branches.
Finally, I know this time—totally fail.
The only way is plant on the ground." Min Hsuan Lo
andy
AndyWilson
Mame
30 hours of carefull wiring to bring out the tree from his mind. Wow. fantastic link Andy, just goes to show you how doing something patiently and properly can produce the most wonderfull results.
As for quality yamadori, i have seen beautiful old olives bought by begginers and chopped into the worst kind of broom. Hmm 100 year old olives carefully pulled from the ground only for some twit to cut it in half. No wonder they dont like to sell that stuff to an obvious beginner.
Quality Yamadori will only become quality bonsai with someone who already knows what they are doing, someone who has learnt his trade on inferior material perhaps, or someone who has learnt on good material under the guidance of a teacher who knows what they are doing...
As for quality yamadori, i have seen beautiful old olives bought by begginers and chopped into the worst kind of broom. Hmm 100 year old olives carefully pulled from the ground only for some twit to cut it in half. No wonder they dont like to sell that stuff to an obvious beginner.
Quality Yamadori will only become quality bonsai with someone who already knows what they are doing, someone who has learnt his trade on inferior material perhaps, or someone who has learnt on good material under the guidance of a teacher who knows what they are doing...
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
During the thread by Rick Moquin on camera's I had made a mention of material and price, wait let me quote myself....
Al said:
later in that thread....
Will Heath said:
This simple exchange has spurred about 5 different threads about the price of material, yamadori being better or equal to nursery material and numerous polls. Last night I spoke of contests and today I was astonished to find the Holy Grail of posts.
I must ask for clarification on this because I could hardly believe my eyes when I read it. The part in red toots the horn of KoB on producing a contest with few limits. The largest factor being no price ceiling. Go for it if you can. Yet in the bold sentance you state that the failure of past contests was due to the price of material. Let me say this again:Yes, we did this because every other contest allowed only nursery stock and cheap stock at that. You did not say poor stock, you said cheap stock. Am I to read that you feel that the determining factor that professionals did not enter was that they wished to use more expensive (read better) stock? These are your words as you wrote them. You inferred that failure was due to cheap stock and the editors at Kob wanted to raise the bar by introducing a contest without limits. Why?
The second sentance in red says it all. Because those in the know, have, over a period of years discovered that the way to better bonsai is to work with better (pricy) material or to work with collected material exclusively.
In your post during the camera thread you said that....Oh wait, let me quote again:
Seems to me that these artists could have just used a cheap tree. No need to take advantage of collected material nor spend a lot of money on material when they could just use a 5.00 dollar tree and make it into something with enormous talent.
In the second paragraph , blue section you state that you do not know why no one entered in the professional, Raw Stock catagory. I know why and I think you do too. It's because they wanted to win. They wanted the best opportunity to do that by working with material that would give them the best chance to succeed. Why would anyone start with raw nursery material in a contest about making a bonsai in 6 months.
In the third paragraph, the bold sentance in green you said that price does not dictate quality or crap. In the first paragraph you said that earlier contests failed due to cheap stock. I read that cheap stock is inferior and contests without limits allows participants to work with better more expensive material.
I think your three paragraphs contradict each other and by typeing one word wrong (cheap instead of poor )you have basicly agreed with what everyone has said all along. All things being equal, spending more on better material will get you better trees talent or not.
It all boils down to this. The only thing KoB did was remove money from the equation. I don't find that too hard to comprehend. You attracted more and better artists because money was not the object or limitation. You guys removed the limiting factor that you keep saying is not a limiting factor. Do you really think the contest at KoB would have been as interesting or well attended by better artists if you would have made it a 20.00 garden center type contest?
I am working on my own thread that will shed much more light on this subject, Al
Al said:
later in that thread....
Will Heath said:
This simple exchange has spurred about 5 different threads about the price of material, yamadori being better or equal to nursery material and numerous polls. Last night I spoke of contests and today I was astonished to find the Holy Grail of posts.
I must ask for clarification on this because I could hardly believe my eyes when I read it. The part in red toots the horn of KoB on producing a contest with few limits. The largest factor being no price ceiling. Go for it if you can. Yet in the bold sentance you state that the failure of past contests was due to the price of material. Let me say this again:Yes, we did this because every other contest allowed only nursery stock and cheap stock at that. You did not say poor stock, you said cheap stock. Am I to read that you feel that the determining factor that professionals did not enter was that they wished to use more expensive (read better) stock? These are your words as you wrote them. You inferred that failure was due to cheap stock and the editors at Kob wanted to raise the bar by introducing a contest without limits. Why?
The second sentance in red says it all. Because those in the know, have, over a period of years discovered that the way to better bonsai is to work with better (pricy) material or to work with collected material exclusively.
In your post during the camera thread you said that....Oh wait, let me quote again:
Seems to me that these artists could have just used a cheap tree. No need to take advantage of collected material nor spend a lot of money on material when they could just use a 5.00 dollar tree and make it into something with enormous talent.
In the second paragraph , blue section you state that you do not know why no one entered in the professional, Raw Stock catagory. I know why and I think you do too. It's because they wanted to win. They wanted the best opportunity to do that by working with material that would give them the best chance to succeed. Why would anyone start with raw nursery material in a contest about making a bonsai in 6 months.
In the third paragraph, the bold sentance in green you said that price does not dictate quality or crap. In the first paragraph you said that earlier contests failed due to cheap stock. I read that cheap stock is inferior and contests without limits allows participants to work with better more expensive material.
I think your three paragraphs contradict each other and by typeing one word wrong (cheap instead of poor )you have basicly agreed with what everyone has said all along. All things being equal, spending more on better material will get you better trees talent or not.
It all boils down to this. The only thing KoB did was remove money from the equation. I don't find that too hard to comprehend. You attracted more and better artists because money was not the object or limitation. You guys removed the limiting factor that you keep saying is not a limiting factor. Do you really think the contest at KoB would have been as interesting or well attended by better artists if you would have made it a 20.00 garden center type contest?
I am working on my own thread that will shed much more light on this subject, Al
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cascade
Shohin
Yamadori
I am missing something in the discussion about yamadori.I am missing the thought that yamadori material has its own history.The history of survival,the history of age,the history of eventually being captured.The sadness of being away from the mountain.The melancholy of captivity and surplus.
Yamadori has soul and dignity,this is why yamadori are truly borrowed from nature.You cannot style soul and dignity,you can only nurture or destroy it.The tree eventually dies and you give it back to nature.
One of the biggest challenges with yamadori (besides keeping them alive and "happy") seems to be establishing believability of general appearance,that is sparse foliage,natural jins and shari,non contrived tree structure,a good deal of free branching and the corresponding container (and stand).Very often the pot/stand choice is poor or unsuitable and distracts from the tree.
(I also hate unnatural "bonsai soil" around an old tree imho,when being presented of course...)
Yamadori and collecting yamadori is not for the beginner,but it can be a goal for the enthusiast.You wake up and you are capable of maintaining and nurturing the very own tree characteristics,now you are beginning to understand..
-dorothy
I am missing something in the discussion about yamadori.I am missing the thought that yamadori material has its own history.The history of survival,the history of age,the history of eventually being captured.The sadness of being away from the mountain.The melancholy of captivity and surplus.
Yamadori has soul and dignity,this is why yamadori are truly borrowed from nature.You cannot style soul and dignity,you can only nurture or destroy it.The tree eventually dies and you give it back to nature.
One of the biggest challenges with yamadori (besides keeping them alive and "happy") seems to be establishing believability of general appearance,that is sparse foliage,natural jins and shari,non contrived tree structure,a good deal of free branching and the corresponding container (and stand).Very often the pot/stand choice is poor or unsuitable and distracts from the tree.
(I also hate unnatural "bonsai soil" around an old tree imho,when being presented of course...)
Yamadori and collecting yamadori is not for the beginner,but it can be a goal for the enthusiast.You wake up and you are capable of maintaining and nurturing the very own tree characteristics,now you are beginning to understand..
-dorothy
Boondock
Shohin
This affects me in a way like that I have just learned something from somebody who truly understand the subject matter. thank you
Anonymous User
Banned
Wow, that was a lot of words, it took sometime to make sense of it all, I'll have to break this up in order to answer all the points made.
Glad you think so highly of my posts Al, however, the discussion on nursery material being automatically crap started many months ago on this forum and before that was debated on others. In fact this misconception has led some people to actually tell new comers that they should shy away from it and instead learn on expensive stock or, God forbid, even collected material.
No, I meant cheap. Remember I was referring to the styling contests at BT, I think I managed three over there, in which the main consideration by management, as well as the majority of the membership, was to keep the price limit low, in fact the word used often was "cheap."
Being a beginner forum, the fear (not mine) was that if the price went too high, no one would participate. This has been the basis of most contests there, It still is, I think the last contest there was seeing who could make the best bonsai out of pipe cleaners. The mistake people made was assuming cheap meant poor, as you have.
So, we went with a cheap price limit. It was cheap so I said cheap. I, in no way implied that we went with poor material, that was your word. I seen some pretty damn nice results come out of those contests, Behr and Vance for example created some nice bonsai, almost instantly (due to the extremely short time frame used) out of nursery stock bought cheaply. How? Because they got good stock at a cheap price.
Which leads us back to what I have said since the beginning, price or location does not dictate quality. Having the eye to recognize great stock no matter where or at what price, is the most important thing, nothing else matters. Well, okay, talent, without it you'll spend 40 years at this art, spend a small fortune, and still have nothing to show for it, except excuses.
No, we removed price limits
Separated professionals from non-professionals
Created three categories for different stock sources
Made it mandatory to show progression photos
Made it mandatory to include text describing decisions made
Arranged sponsorship by one of the most respected bonsai publications
and, in short, set the standard for on-line styling contests.
But wait, what about the three categories? Why, if great material can be found from all sources, would we divide the categories?
Well, to use your own words, it's not too hard to comprehend.
Bonsai nurseries carry pre-styled stock, trees that have had design work done on them by other artists, some that need very little talented design work at all. Should we have not allowed such stock? No, we were determined to let any one work on what they thought they were best at, hence the categories, designed only to level the playing field. The decision had nothing at all to do with traditional nursery stock or collected material.
In the soon to be announce next AoB contest we have divided categories by species and did away with the professional - non-professional distinction. Why? Are we saying pines are easier than maples to create a world-class bonsai with? Not at all, we just wanted to pit like trees against like trees. As to the professional/non-professional categories, AoB is all professional, all entries will be as well.
In the soon to be announced (see the next Bonsai Focus) KoB contest we will see a few modifications to the contest and most likely a lot more entries.
Stay tuned.
Will
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rlist
Shohin
I had a marketing professor that taught us: Never use the word "cheap" unless you are selling birdseed. The word "cheap" has two connotations - one related to quality and the other related to price. So, if I want to describe something that has a low selling price, I say it is inexpensive - meaning it has a low price and quality can be inferred as anywhere from craptastic to fantastic.
I believe that you were using "cheap" as a means of indicating low price point; however, I read it as poor quality when I first read the exchange above...
Rick Moquin
Omono
Good observation Rich, I picked that one up also, but refrained... would of saved allot of writing.
Anonymous User
Banned
You are right, the word can be defined both ways, I should have indeed used the word "inexpensive."
cheap [ cheep ] (comparative cheap·er, superlative cheap·est)
adjective
Definition:
1. costing little: low in price or cost, or lower in price than might reasonably be expected
2. charging little: charging low prices but offering good value
3. poor quality: inexpensive and of poor quality
4. worth little: worth little or accorded little value
In times of war, life is cheap.
5. undeserving of respect: not deserving to be respected
6. unfair: dishonorable, offensive, or unfair, especially in a way that seems obvious or calculated
a cheap trick
7. stingy: stingy or unwilling to give freely
My bad,
Will
cheap [ cheep ] (comparative cheap·er, superlative cheap·est)
adjective
Definition:
1. costing little: low in price or cost, or lower in price than might reasonably be expected
2. charging little: charging low prices but offering good value
3. poor quality: inexpensive and of poor quality
4. worth little: worth little or accorded little value
In times of war, life is cheap.
5. undeserving of respect: not deserving to be respected
6. unfair: dishonorable, offensive, or unfair, especially in a way that seems obvious or calculated
a cheap trick
7. stingy: stingy or unwilling to give freely
My bad,
Will
Rick Moquin
Omono
Bailiff! wack his pipi 
Anonymous User
Banned
LMAO.
Will
Will
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
I see the forums sometimes as a war of words. Who will steer someone to their side by useing the best words, not unlike whats going on every Tuesday around our nation. It's easy to make a mistake now and then. I think some of this is taken much too seriously, far too seriously for a hobby thats supposed to be relaxing. For me bonsai is about the destination. The journey is required to get there. I don't mind the journey and find it pleasurable sometimes, just so it doesn't take too long.
Actually you should have used the word "poor", remember this has nothing to do with price!
Anonymous User
Banned
No, the intention was not to limit stock by a set and defined price, because it indeed has nothing to do with quality.
Those who chose poor stock, did so without reason.
The correct word was inexpensive.
Will
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