Yamadori - Etiquette and Philosophy.

[ghues]

Hi there, I'm not trying to start a flame war.... just hoping to see what others think, believe, do etc.......

I’m probably like most of the other collectors out there……we’ve all read the do’s and don’ts….”the rules of yamadori etiquette” and I’d hazard a guess that most follow them fairly closely.

How about the Philosophy of Yamadori…..does the Japanese have any fundamental ideas?...written thoughts on it? If you have any links/knowledge please chime in.

I started wondering just how big Yamadori collection is after reading many articles, checking posts on forums, watching numerous U Tube video’s of apprentices working in Japan on them….. with thousands in the background.

What I haven’t read much on or seen little on is giving back …only the taking of some of Mother Nature’s treasures……

I’m on two forums but I when I went surfing to try and see just how large Yamadori is…. I was amazed by the number of Bonsai forums that had hundreds of posts on collected stock and with a little more searching I started to see just how large the collection of wild trees around the world really is.

So my point is this – why don’t we give back…..We head out with empty back packs, wheel barrows, quads vehicles and all sorts of contraptions (OK they have tools, water, lunch, fire starter….etc), ….. SO why don’t we take some appropriate seedlings (say 5-10) and plant them where we’ve taken a prize tree?

So how big is your yamadori collection? How about a total for your club, multiply that by the clubs in the associations, associations in your country, number of countries……..etc……etc….its huge - deforestation some would argue.

Some ides and food for thought/discussion.

Cheers Graham

 

[Poink88]

From what I've read, it depends where you are collecting.

If you are taking an understory tree, it is destined to die eventually anyway. Firemen actually spend lots of money and time burning them (controlled) to eliminate/reduce wild fire fuel.

I can see it maters in desolate areas where the tree you are collecting is one of the few...but then, I bet the seedling you plant will be dead in a week if it is the case.

I have no answer for you because I only collect in urban setting and mostly in yards. A few in construction areas too...all of which are destined to be destroyed anyway and I am just saving them.

 

[Poink88]

By the way, nature has its way of mending things. If you notice burned areas...not a few months after, the place will be green again. Not the same size but eventually it will re-grow. Remove a plant and 4 or more seeds will grow in its place. They are there just waiting for that opportunity. Some of them will eventually die (survival of the fittest) but that plant is eventually replaced.

JMHO.

 

[Dav4]

Though I appreciate your wish to "give back", maybe even help the ecosystem, I wouldn't suggest planting out seedlings. Assuming that the collecting of yamadori is done responsibly, the effect on the local ecosustem should be minimal to almost non-existant. However, planting out seedlings to replace the yamadori removed has several downsides. First, genetically speaking, it would be unlikely the seedlings you have access to will be identical to the genotype of the local population you are collecting from...you are potentially changing the genetic make up of that population of trees, which may or may not have implications down the road. Secondly, you may innadvertently introduce a disease, perhaps an insect, fungus, or bacteria, into the population which, again, may have significant implications in the future. Personally, I'd say being a conscientious, responsible collector is most important.

 

[rockm]

"First, genetically speaking, it would be unlikely the seedlings you have access to will be identical to the genotype of the local population you are collecting from...you are potentially changing the genetic make up of that population of trees, which may or may not have implications down the road. Secondly, you may innadvertently introduce a disease, perhaps an insect, fungus, or bacteria, into the population which, again, may have significant implications in the future. Personally, I'd say being a conscientious, responsible collector is most important."

I second all of this. Replacing collected trees with trees from a nursery, or even from a different nearby portion of land can do a lot more harm than simply letting nature fill in the gap.

"I started to see just how large the collection of wild trees around the world really is"

In the bigger picture, it is vastly tiny. Compare to logging operations, development, forest fires, drought, thunder storms, hurricanes, etc. yamadori collectors take a very very VERY small number of trees.

 

[Gene Deci]

The majority of my bonsai are from trees I have collected - roughly 20 out of 30 - over a period of about 15 years. I have also collected some that died and some I have donated to the club auction. All together that averages to maybe two trees a year out of the literally thousands I have seen but not collected. What the average bonsai hobbyist does has zero environmental impact.

What bothers me is that we are so often forbidden from collecting trees because of "environmental concerns" when there would be no detrimental effect and they are mostly doomed anyway.

 

[wireme]

Good topic, I also wonder about ways to give back or even mitigate the effects of yamadori collection.

One option I see is information gathering. While searching for Yamadori I'll often come across small pockets of probably undocumented old growth forest or patches of rareish species, ie in my area limber pine.
It would be nice to find a way to put this info to use, possible even leading to some sort of protection status for certain areas. Learning to identify endangered plants in your area and cataloging locations would be a good start I think.
I like to imagine that simply having nice trees in your collection can help promote a love and respect of natures wild places by being seen by others.

 

[Dan W.]

However, planting out seedlings to replace the yamadori removed has several downsides. First, genetically speaking, it would be unlikely the seedlings you have access to will be identical to the genotype of the local population you are collecting from...you are potentially changing the genetic make up of that population of trees, which may or may not have implications down the road. Secondly, you may innadvertently introduce a disease, perhaps an insect, fungus, or bacteria, into the population which, again, may have significant implications in the future. Personally, I'd say being a conscientious, responsible collector is most important.

I agree with you completely on this. I was talking to our local forestry rep just last week about this same issue; I had offered to replace any trees collected with seedlings...his response was almost identical to yours. lol. He appreciated the thought but said it would cause more harm than good- for the same reasons you mentioned.-- One thing I do is to replace any rocks/soil as well as I can. I'll also toss in a pine cone or two from a nearby tree in hopes that 100yrs and several generations from now someone else will find a gnarly/beautiful tree to inspire them as I did.

From a forestry perspective the trees we value so much are virtually worthless. These trees are often cut or burned out. As mentioned... The trees we collect don't even compare to the number of trees that are logged or lost to fire every year. -- Note that all of those trees die; our goal is to keep them alive and hopefully give far more people the opportunity to admire and connect with them than ever would have in nature. To me... That is the purpose of art: To share beauty with others, to inspire them... to enrich each others lives; to connect.

As always, we should watch our motives to prevent our greed from causing unnessessary destruction. But if we act with dignity then we will effectively cause more appreciation for trees in general. I know that I have learned far more about trees than I ever imagined before bonsai infected me, and not only that, I have grown to love trees and nature in a way that has changed the way I live and interact with nature.

 

[ghues]

From what I've read, it depends where you are collecting.

If you are taking an understory tree, it is destined to die eventually anyway. Firemen actually spend lots of money and time burning them (controlled) to eliminate/reduce wild fire fuel.

I can see it maters in desolate areas where the tree you are collecting is one of the few...but then, I bet the seedling you plant will be dead in a week if it is the case.

I have no answer for you because I only collect in urban setting and mostly in yards. A few in construction areas too...all of which are destined to be destroyed anyway and I am just saving them.

Poink88, please bare with me please, I'm not insulting you but believe that your ideas and exposure to this are somewhat limited, perhaps
I know a lot about wildfire management as I've been a forester for 37 years. One of the reasons that the understory is cut down is that we've stopped the natural ecosystem functions by attacking the wildfires and putting them out, thus the areas grow thick with understory trees which would normally be taken out by periodic fires.
The desolate areas you are speaking of are exactly where we need to replace the trees.... or we must ensure that if we collect a tree there is one there to replace. As far as survival of the seedling, its just like most things bonsai, timing my friend, planted at the right time it will survive .....
Here’s where I’d like to go – it’s those rare and special ecosystems that I’m targeting and I believe that some collectors could easily replace the tree they’ve taken with a small seedling.
It could be a California juniper, or a European mugo, a hemlock up here, a larch in the USA or Europe….same goes for the Philippines or any other location.
One could get seed for seedlings, and some of the Bonsai nurseries could easily grow them or grow them from cuttings and then provide them to folks to plant.

I’m speaking of a movement within the bonsai community around the world so that we can be proud of the trees within the show but also the legacy we’ve left in the woods.

 

[ghues]

Though I appreciate your wish to "give back", maybe even help the ecosystem, I wouldn't suggest planting out seedlings. Assuming that the collecting of yamadori is done responsibly, the effect on the local ecosustem should be minimal to almost non-existant. However, planting out seedlings to replace the yamadori removed has several downsides. First, genetically speaking, it would be unlikely the seedlings you have access to will be identical to the genotype of the local population you are collecting from...you are potentially changing the genetic make up of that population of trees, which may or may not have implications down the road. Secondly, you may innadvertently introduce a disease, perhaps an insect, fungus, or bacteria, into the population which, again, may have significant implications in the future. Personally, I'd say being a conscientious, responsible collector is most important.

Dave 4.
You’ve got a big ASS U ME there, the effect might be small like a peanut but if you get enough peanuts you can feed an elephant lol.
OK genetics – You’d be surprised at the forestry community around the world and what it has to offer in regards to that. Here is BC and most of Canada we have a huge seed bank that covers all the ecosystems that we operate in and even ones in the sub-alpine areas where we don’t (and companies like the one I work for has to have a 10 year seed supply). So we can get the seed for many of the areas where we collect from and I’m sure that if one is to look into it this a little further it is the same in many parts of the world. Besides another way of getting seedlings is by cuttings – we do this all the time.
I agree that being a conscientious responsible collector is the most important and therefore we should try at some level to give back.

Just as an aside – I was involved in a climate change webinar the other day and the science predicted that we will see a 2-4 (C) rise in annual temperature... so our forestry community is looking at all the ways we can prepare ourselves for this change….and planting trees is one way of giving back…..another point that was interesting is that a young vibrant stand of conifers provides a positive return of the C02 front whereas an old decadent ancient forest is actually a negative one.

Cheers
Graham

 

[ghues]

"First, genetically speaking, it would be unlikely the seedlings you have access to will be identical to the genotype of the local population you are collecting from...you are potentially changing the genetic make up of that population of trees, which may or may not have implications down the road. Secondly, you may innadvertently introduce a disease, perhaps an insect, fungus, or bacteria, into the population which, again, may have significant implications in the future. Personally, I'd say being a conscientious, responsible collector is most important."

I second all of this. Replacing collected trees with trees from a nursery, or even from a different nearby portion of land can do a lot more harm than simply letting nature fill in the gap.

"I started to see just how large the collection of wild trees around the world really is"

In the bigger picture, it is vastly tiny. Compare to logging operations, development, forest fires, drought, thunder storms, hurricanes, etc. yamadori collectors take a very very VERY small number of trees.

Rockm
Sure compared to those things you've menitoned it is small but what I'm saying is that as a bonsai community....why not give something back.....
Agreed ....mother nature can fill in the gap and does a great job of it but we can and should lend her a hand when we as humans continually take without giving anything back.
G

 

[ghues]

I agree with you completely on this. I was talking to our local forestry rep just last week about this same issue; I had offered to replace any trees collected with seedlings...his response was almost identical to yours. lol. He appreciated the thought but said it would cause more harm than good- for the same reasons you mentioned.-- One thing I do is to replace any rocks/soil as well as I can. I'll also toss in a pine cone or two from a nearby tree in hopes that 100yrs and several generations from now someone else will find a gnarly/beautiful tree to inspire them as I did.

From a forestry perspective the trees we value so much are virtually worthless. These trees are often cut or burned out. As mentioned... The trees we collect don't even compare to the number of trees that are logged or lost to fire every year. -- Note that all of those trees die; our goal is to keep them alive and hopefully give far more people the opportunity to admire and connect with them than ever would have in nature. To me... That is the purpose of art: To share beauty with others, to inspire them... to enrich each others lives; to connect.

As always, we should watch our motives to prevent our greed from causing unnessessary destruction. But if we act with dignity then we will effectively cause more appreciation for trees in general. I know that I have learned far more about trees than I ever imagined before bonsai infected me, and not only that, I have grown to love trees and nature in a way that has changed the way I live and interact with nature.

Hi DanW,
Well I'm a forester with 37 years of experience on the subject so I'd have to disagree with the forestry rep you quote. We can and do this where I live and work so it might be a difference between the forest community or a misunderstanding on what is attainable within various parts of the world.
What I’d love to see is a coordinated effort as I’ve mentioned in my responses to other posts, as we (the forest community) have huge seed banks for multiple species.
Over the decades, I’ve been involved with collections of wild seed with specialists that are part of ecosystem restoration projects especially in the subalpine areas where climate change is putting some species at risk of disease which was until recently, at lower elevations.
Agree with your thoughts on acting with dignity and all that but like I’ve stated earlier I’d like to see some movement within the bonsai community on giving something back.
Great discussion.
Cheers
Graham

 

[rockm]

"lend her a hand when we as humans continually take without giving anything back."

The issue I have with replanting trees that are alien to an area you've collected in is that you may indeed be giving something back, something that's potentially a problem. If you plant seedlings grown in a nursery in that area, you're opening up a very viable source of disease. This can be especially true in areas that are already vulnerable to disease.

Take Texas for example. The live oaks in that state are under siege by an oak wilt infestation that's killing very very old trees. It spread like wildfire and is almost impossible to treat. The infection has shown up in nursery trees. There are similar stories on other species and other diseases throughout the U.S. What you're suggesting can add to that problem.

 

[ghues]

I agree with you completely on this. I was talking to our local forestry rep just last week about this same issue; I had offered to replace any trees collected with seedlings...his response was almost identical to yours. lol. He appreciated the thought but said it would cause more harm than good- for the same reasons you mentioned.-- One thing I do is to replace any rocks/soil as well as I can. I'll also toss in a pine cone or two from a nearby tree in hopes that 100yrs and several generations from now someone else will find a gnarly/beautiful tree to inspire them as I did.

From a forestry perspective the trees we value so much are virtually worthless. These trees are often cut or burned out. As mentioned... The trees we collect don't even compare to the number of trees that are logged or lost to fire every year. -- Note that all of those trees die; our goal is to keep them alive and hopefully give far more people the opportunity to admire and connect with them than ever would have in nature. To me... That is the purpose of art: To share beauty with others, to inspire them... to enrich each others lives; to connect.

As always, we should watch our motives to prevent our greed from causing unnessessary destruction. But if we act with dignity then we will effectively cause more appreciation for trees in general. I know that I have learned far more about trees than I ever imagined before bonsai infected me, and not only that, I have grown to love trees and nature in a way that has changed the way I live and interact with nature.

Hi DanW,
Well I'm a forester with 37 years of experience on the subject so I'd have to disagree with the forestry rep you quote. We can and do this where I live and work so it might be a difference between the forest community or a misunderstanding on what is attainable within various parts of the world.
What I’d love to see is a coordinated effort as I’ve mentioned in my responses to other posts, as we (the forest community) have huge seed banks for multiple species.
Over the decades, I’ve been involved with collections of wild seed with specialists that are part of ecosystem restoration projects especially in the subalpine areas where climate change is putting some species at risk of disease which was until recently, at lower elevations.
Agree with your thoughts on acting with dignity and all that but like I’ve stated earlier I’d like to see some movement within the bonsai community on giving something back.
Great discussion.
Cheers
Graham

 

[Dan W.]

Graham, I do not disagree with you at all that coordinated efforts to improve our forests should be a high priority, and the bonsai community could contribute very much to this.

As for seedling being returned to the forest, I think rockm's concern is valid. Also, as I'm out collecting I notice what appear to be genetic differences in the same specie of tree within less than a mile of different stands. I don't remember the terms the forestry rep here used... "genotype" may have been one, but I'm not trained in these areas. I also think a tree that grows from seed in the harsh environment where I collect will probably be hardier and less prone to disease than one that was consistently watered and fertilized in my yard for a year or two. Not to mention that those trees will have been in close proximity to other trees from all around the world. -- you have far more training/experience than I do, so I would very much like to hear your response to these concerns.

As for a coordinated effort; I think there are many ways we can and possibly even do contribute: 1) Simply showing our bonsai at shows in public areas raises appreciation and awareness of these trees. 2) I think a great addition to shows may be classes taught by local forestry experts about the forest and it's enhabitants. This would be a great way to teach the public, and I believe that many bonsai lovers would be very interested in classes like this. 3) We should highly encourage each other to work with our local forestry departments; whether that means helping to log information while we're in the field, or volunteering for re-forestation projects-- in which case the concerns stated above will have already been professionally studied and addressed.

If we are pro-active in working with the professionals such as yourself, I believe we can do a lot of good. But if we all just start trying to do our own thing without a full understanding of what the forestry management teams are doing we could also cause more harm than good.

 

[Dav4]

Dave 4.
You’ve got a big ASS U ME there, the effect might be small like a peanut but if you get enough peanuts you can feed an elephant lol.
OK genetics – You’d be surprised at the forestry community around the world and what it has to offer in regards to that. Here is BC and most of Canada we have a huge seed bank that covers all the ecosystems that we operate in and even ones in the sub-alpine areas where we don’t (and companies like the one I work for has to have a 10 year seed supply). So we can get the seed for many of the areas where we collect from and I’m sure that if one is to look into it this a little further it is the same in many parts of the world. Besides another way of getting seedlings is by cuttings – we do this all the time.
Cheers
Graham

Wow, no need to call me an ass...maybe you should have included this info in your original post. It almost seems you deliberately withheld it with the intent of throwing it in the face of those who were quite likely to respond as I did. By the way, cuttings can still introduce new pathogens into the local ecosystem. I am officially sorry I responded to this thread...I feel like I was baited...

 

[Vance Wood]

Hi there, I'm not trying to start a flame war.... just hoping to see what others think, believe, do etc.......

I’m probably like most of the other collectors out there……we’ve all read the do’s and don’ts….”the rules of yamadori etiquette” and I’d hazard a guess that most follow them fairly closely.

How about the Philosophy of Yamadori…..does the Japanese have any fundamental ideas?...written thoughts on it? If you have any links/knowledge please chime in.

I started wondering just how big Yamadori collection is after reading many articles, checking posts on forums, watching numerous U Tube video’s of apprentices working in Japan on them….. with thousands in the background.

What I haven’t read much on or seen little on is giving back …only the taking of some of Mother Nature’s treasures……

I’m on two forums but I when I went surfing to try and see just how large Yamadori is…. I was amazed by the number of Bonsai forums that had hundreds of posts on collected stock and with a little more searching I started to see just how large the collection of wild trees around the world really is.

So my point is this – why don’t we give back…..We head out with empty back packs, wheel barrows, quads vehicles and all sorts of contraptions (OK they have tools, water, lunch, fire starter….etc), ….. SO why don’t we take some appropriate seedlings (say 5-10) and plant them where we’ve taken a prize tree?

So how big is your yamadori collection? How about a total for your club, multiply that by the clubs in the associations, associations in your country, number of countries……..etc……etc….its huge - deforestation some would argue.

Some ides and food for thought/discussion.

Cheers Graham

One problem with this concept, which on the surface of it I agree, there is the problem of introducing foreign and or invasive species. One thing that tweaks the noses of official horticultural people is putting things into the environment that do not occur there naturally.

 

[jk_lewis]

Poink wrote:

If you notice burned areas...not a few months after, the place will be green again. Not the same size but eventually it will re-grow.

Yes . . . but . . . The plants that grow and turn that burned area green aren't likely to be the same species that were there when the ecosystem was damaged. Colonizing species are always around and ready to take root in a bare, sunny situation. These colonizers then provide the shade (if 20-30 years) that will allow the original forest to regenerate in that spot.

 

[Poink88]

jkl, You obviously missed my point (by a mile) in relation to collecting & the need to replace it.

It is not the same devastation as fire would cause...one small tree was taken. Cover is still there and seeds from same species are most likely there waiting for the opportunity to sprout. A new plant most likely won't survive without an after care...unlike the seed which may be a year behind but will most likely survive.

 

[Attila Soos]

I only have about 20 yamadori, a very tiny fraction of my total collection. The rest are collected seedlings and nursery material grown in the ground for decades, plus a small number of purchased, semi-finished bonsai.

Here in California, yamadori collecting has virtually zero influence on the environment. This is my own assessment, based on my hiking trips arund the state. There are critically vulnerable areas, where collecting is strictly forbidden, and people abide by the law for the most part. And there are healty, vigorous ecosystems, where collecting a small number of small trees has made no dent in the flora, whatsoever.

So, at the moment, bonsai is a non-factor in the regions I am familiar with.