Yamadori???

Gene Deci

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Just a quick question. Do you take yamadori to mean anything dug up from the wild or just the older, more venerable trees? Does any one know how the Japanese use the word.
 

Bunjeh

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http://www.yamadori.com/

This link should help. While the basic term means collected from the wild, just like bon-sai means potted tree I think we can agree that not everything collected from the wild is yamadori and not every tree in a pot is bonsai. For me, yamadori is natural material that displays the basic components of bonsai. I think it's a fine line.
 

M. Frary

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For me yamadori means something that nature has already did the work. Almost if not a nature made bonsai. Me going digging and chopping elm stumps growing wild is not my definition of yamadori. That's just taking advantage of nature doing ground growing.
 

Eric Group

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I think the term originated in Japan regarding ancient "weathered" old trees collected from the mountains... Peopl in America seem to use it for any material dug from the ground and put into bonsai training.
 

fourteener

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I too think the idea around Yamadori has to do with nature creating an impressive amount of weathering that jumpstarts thus whole process. Like the post above, it seems that some things people call Yamadori is simply mother natures "ground growing". When I see a little stick in a pot that someone dug up, something that could just as well be nursery stock found in a yard, I really don't consider it Yamadori. My opinion, not from Websters dictionary or anything. It would be interesting to know a Japanese understanding of their own word.
 

Bunjeh

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It would be interesting to know a Japanese understanding of their own word.

山鳥 are the charachters for the word Yama Dori seem to mean Hill and Bird. So I have no freaking idea.
 

M. Frary

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山鳥 are the charachters for the word Yama Dori seem to mean Hill and Bird. So I have no freaking idea.

The hill part I get. The best ones are found on hillsides. Maybe bird means you must be able to defy gravity to get to them?
 

milehigh_7

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the bird character

Maybe it is why Mr. Naka talked about "Leave room for the birds to fly through." Maybe there is something deeper about a something that actually already looks like a miniature tree when you dig it.
 

Djtommy

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山鳥 are the charachters for the word Yama Dori seem to mean Hill and Bird. So I have no freaking idea.

actually yamadori is written as 山採り or 山取り , first one can be translated as picking from mountain, and second taken from mountain, so no birds in there :)

grtz
 

Vance Wood

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actually yamadori is written as 山採り or 山取り , first one can be translated as picking from mountain, and second taken from mountain, so no birds in there :)

grtz

I appreciate this. It is nice to know what the word from the source actually means. So much confusion surrounds so much of what we, as Westerners, understand of bonsai. It is surprising we can agree or communicate on anything when, one word can mean one thing, and be understood to mean another in a totally different context. It becomes doubly bad when those who teach bonsai resort to these terms without clearly defining exactly what they mean. I think we all are aware that in our culture we have allowed the definition of the term Yamadori to be any tree dug from the ground anywhere. I think most of us know this is not what the word means but we allow it because it is not worth the risk to piss someone off over the understanding of this word. However; the longer this is allowed to continue unabated, as time passes the definition will by usage be changed. This is how word definitions change.

Here is a good example: The word artificial. Today we look at the word as meaning not real, fake, second rate, and a counterfeit fraud. Originally, at least back in the Renaissance the word Artificial was applied to things and people that produced great works of art, performance on musical music instruments, and the composition of great music. It was a word of praise, originality, skill and beauty. Some change-- right?

If applied today; I called your bonsai skills and bonsai Artificial you would be insulted. Four Hundred years ago, I would be complementing your ability to produce great works of art and the skill it took to do so.
 
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Bunjeh

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actually yamadori is written as 山採り or 山取り , first one can be translated as picking from mountain, and second taken from mountain, so no birds in there :)

grtz

山取 are the characters for Hill and Take and 山採 are Hill and Dig so that makes a heck of a lot more sense. Dontcha love ideographic languages.
 

Mark

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Old and dwarfed by nature collected in the wild. Understood meaning.
 

edprocoat

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OK, so do they have symbols for hunky-dori ?

:)

ed
 

augustine

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Yama = mountain as in "Fujiyama" or Mount Fuji.

In Japanese martial arts "dori" means "to take away" as in taking a weapon from an opponent.

Best,

Augustine
 

johng

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I am sorry xenophiles....

Here is yet another example of when using Japanese terms just doesn't work... Our own language is difficult enough yet we insist on using one in which none of us are fluent????

We have many words in English that would completely solve this problem for all involved but instead we think it is cool to use Japanese words even though we don't have a clue what they really mean or how they are used correctly...


Collected from the mountains
collected from the swamp
collected from the yard...

very clear and you don't have to buy into the "Bonsai Mystic" to understand....
 

Gene Deci

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Here is yet another example of when using Japanese terms just doesn't work... Our own language is difficult enough yet we insist on using one in which none of us are fluent????

We have many words in English that would completely solve this problem for all involved but instead we think it is cool to use Japanese words even though we don't have a clue what they really mean or how they are used correctly...


Collected from the mountains
collected from the swamp
collected from the yard...

very clear and you don't have to buy into the "Bonsai Mystic" to understand....


But that still begs the question, Anything collected from…. or old, naturally dwarfed material only. It would be nice to have a word that is widely agreed on for that.
 

pbethune

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Just a quick question. Do you take yamadori to mean anything dug up from the wild or just the older, more venerable trees? Does any one know how the Japanese use the word.

Although it means taking tree from mountain, it means in my book digging up a tree from a field, backyard, disregarded material from a work site, etc. That makes up around 85% of my trees.
 

johng

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But that still begs the question, Anything collected from…. or old, naturally dwarfed material only. It would be nice to have a word that is widely agreed on for that.


I think the answer is in your reply...why does it need to be just one word... when in our language we use descriptors to add details... that way it is always clear to others and there is no need to agree on a one word term that you and I both know will be misused as often as it is used correctly...

its just my opinion, take it for what its worth:)
 

pbethune

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Yamadori ID???

check out this ugly stump that lives after they threw it to the side of the road while doing construction. He has lived two years after harsh removal. Now it can be mine for free, but need some input on what is it? I have large carving tools ready for it.Walk 2 086.jpg
 
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