Yashu’s Pinus contorta 2022

yashu

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Picked up a new to me Lodgepole Pine. The plant seems very healthy and ready to go. This years growth looks nice and next seasons buds are well set. It’s currently living in a cut down nursery can and in nursery soil. I lifted the root ball to examine the roots and there were tons of live tips and the entire root ball held together in one tight mass. The tree is presently 31” from the top of the soil to the crown. It had some wire pretty severely biting in on a couple high branches but that will grow out… not sure what the wire was doing as it was undersized and wasn’t really effective at positioning branches in any real way. I’ve cleaned out the old needles, removed the wire and cleaned the weeds off the top of the soil as well as applied some fertilizer as there was no evidence that it had been fertilized this season. I also removed a short stump left from a past trunk chop. I think I will do some structural wiring and decide on a front this fall and repot come spring. This is a new species to me as I don’t see them here in Maine very often and I’d be grateful to hear about anyones experiences with Pinus contorta.1B766083-20F9-422A-9D47-FDF5A9655DE5.jpeg9C3FD3E1-55D8-4A30-9584-BBEE57276922.jpeg
 

Scorpius

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I have several I'm learning on. They don't like wet feet at all and if you work their roots too much they can die suddenly. Take your time with it as that's a nice looking tree you have there.
 

yashu

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I have several I'm learning on. They don't like wet feet at all and if you work their roots too much they can die suddenly. Take your time with it as that's a nice looking tree you have there.
Thanks for your input @Scorpius. Should I be concerned with the current nursery soil? The stuff seems like it holds quite a bit of water. I was going with the assumption that it’s done alright so far and seems healthy so it can wait until spring for repotting. I wouldn’t want to lose it over the winter.
 

Scorpius

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Thanks for your input @Scorpius. Should I be concerned with the current nursery soil? The stuff seems like it holds quite a bit of water. I was going with the assumption that it’s done alright so far and seems healthy so it can wait until spring for repotting. I wouldn’t want to lose it over the winter.
Don't touch it till spring. If you feel like there are drainage issues drill some holes in the nursery pot.
 

Potawatomi13

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Unless already found out be aware planting angle may change based on where surface roots at. May want to wait on wire until this done🤔.
 

yashu

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I’ve heard some say slip potting is the worst most useless thing you can do but others claim it’s a useful tool.

Since the root ball is all together in the nursery can I would like to remove it from the can and put the whole thing into a mesh bottom grow box that I already have built. At that point I’d fill in the remainder with (the corners and a bit underneath) with bonsai mix. This will allow me to set the future angle and offer better drainage to the tree. Is there any reason this would be a bad idea or possibly detrimental to the health of the tree? This would leave the roots undisturbed but offer some space for continued growth and allow me to start directing the future style of this tree.
 

Scorpius

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Wait till late winter spring to repot. If you're worried about drainage/ water retention add more drainage holes into that nursery pot and use a chop stick or blunt rod to poke holes in the rootball for more gas exchange.

I would also control how much water it gets if its staying soggy. Bring it into the garage/shed when it rains. You could even put some plastic wrap/tinfoil over the rootball to keep the rain out.

I would then repot this next late winter/ early spring and see how the roots are doing and get that nursery soil worked about. Depending on the roots you might want to only do a half bare root this coming spring and finish the other half in 2024.
 

MaciekA

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I have many contorta, from the whole range of contorta “kingdoms” (from mountain to shore). I have bare rooted several successfully, collected many from the mountains, lava beds and the coast. I’ve worked on a couple from Vancouver Island as well. Most of my contorta are wild-collected but I’ve also transitioned a few nursery-grown seedlings out of a sad state of inappropriate nursery potting. I have also successfully air layered this species, with the air layer being quite large, not just a small shoot. I feel like I can comment with confidence on what the roots of contorta want, relatively confident that this applies across their entire genetic/geographic breadth.

Slip potting is 100% not the way to go with this species, nor is inorganic or dense soil of any kind. Large soil masses (compared to the root system capacity especially) are also villain #2 after organic or compacted or heterogeneous soils.

Pure pumice and/or lava are what they want. The happiest you’ll ever see a shore pine is in an air-breathing mesh pot in pure pumice where the pot isn’t much larger than the root system. They can routinely produce follow-up flushes in such conditions (note: when left alone to run wild with growth, don’t decandle this species) and get their most vigorous growth when the roots are happy. The roots are happy when the soil is homogenous, when it is durable, when it is free of junk and can breathe air and drain quickly. In the PNW I no longer bother hesitating or delaying with the inevitable step: That the soil must be transitioned to this state ASAP with every lodgepole or shore pine that I get, even if it means a lean year and heat mats under the pot. It’s ALWAYS worth it to completely transition the soil to a super squeaky clean air-breathing volcanic setup. Visit places like white river west sno park on mount hood and you will see it in the quality of the needles and growth there. Coast-wise, collect a shore pine from dense often-wet, sometimes salty sand, then rehabilitate it in pumice back home and you completely transform the tree.

@Scorpius is on point with the aeration tips and control of water, and timing of repot. Lodgepole and shore both respond very well to sitting on seedling heat mats if you want to really rev up root growth for a few cold weeks, the results of that can be astounding (I have bare rooted a few lower value yamadori to prove this out, with success). I have not sheltered these trees against any heat extremes, PNW heat dome 2021 was no problem, but NE winters I’m uncertain about so tread with care. The last note I’d share is that they live up to their latin name with regards to wiring. It’s exceptionally difficult to kill a branch from extreme bending as long as you support the bend with correct wiring technique and as long as the tree is in the “good” root setup (air breathing) as described above. Wait to do daring things until after transitioning the roots and getting a first post-transition vigorous feedback growth that says the tree’s recovered.
 

yashu

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I have many contorta, from the whole range of contorta “kingdoms” (from mountain to shore). I have bare rooted several successfully, collected many from the mountains, lava beds and the coast. I’ve worked on a couple from Vancouver Island as well. Most of my contorta are wild-collected but I’ve also transitioned a few nursery-grown seedlings out of a sad state of inappropriate nursery potting. I have also successfully air layered this species, with the air layer being quite large, not just a small shoot. I feel like I can comment with confidence on what the roots of contorta want, relatively confident that this applies across their entire genetic/geographic breadth.

Slip potting is 100% not the way to go with this species, nor is inorganic or dense soil of any kind. Large soil masses (compared to the root system capacity especially) are also villain #2 after organic or compacted or heterogeneous soils.

Pure pumice and/or lava are what they want. The happiest you’ll ever see a shore pine is in an air-breathing mesh pot in pure pumice where the pot isn’t much larger than the root system. They can routinely produce follow-up flushes in such conditions (note: when left alone to run wild with growth, don’t decandle this species) and get their most vigorous growth when the roots are happy. The roots are happy when the soil is homogenous, when it is durable, when it is free of junk and can breathe air and drain quickly. In the PNW I no longer bother hesitating or delaying with the inevitable step: That the soil must be transitioned to this state ASAP with every lodgepole or shore pine that I get, even if it means a lean year and heat mats under the pot. It’s ALWAYS worth it to completely transition the soil to a super squeaky clean air-breathing volcanic setup. Visit places like white river west sno park on mount hood and you will see it in the quality of the needles and growth there. Coast-wise, collect a shore pine from dense often-wet, sometimes salty sand, then rehabilitate it in pumice back home and you completely transform the tree.

@Scorpius is on point with the aeration tips and control of water, and timing of repot. Lodgepole and shore both respond very well to sitting on seedling heat mats if you want to really rev up root growth for a few cold weeks, the results of that can be astounding (I have bare rooted a few lower value yamadori to prove this out, with success). I have not sheltered these trees against any heat extremes, PNW heat dome 2021 was no problem, but NE winters I’m uncertain about so tread with care. The last note I’d share is that they live up to their latin name with regards to wiring. It’s exceptionally difficult to kill a branch from extreme bending as long as you support the bend with correct wiring technique and as long as the tree is in the “good” root setup (air breathing) as described above. Wait to do daring things until after transitioning the roots and getting a first post-transition vigorous feedback growth that says the tree’s recovered.
Thanks! That is a treasure trove of solid info. @Scorpius thank you as well.

However I’m a bit thrown now… should I be concerned about the completely organic and very dense soil that the tree now resides in? As I noted before the roots all come out of the pot quite easily and vigorous, white tipped roots can be seen beginning to circle the pot so regardless of the soil the tree shows good health at the moment. Which takes precedence, getting it out of the mulch and into proper substrate or waiting for the proper season to repot.

This is a “Sunburst” cultivar and is noted as hardy to zone 4. I’m on the line between zones 4/5 so in the ground it would have no problem but in a pot I feel like the roots could be susceptible to frost damage. This was why I asked about slip potting into a grow box. My thinking was that the additional soil around the root ball would help protect it from winter.

When it does come time for repot do you suggest skipping the usual 1/2 at a time bare rooting strategy and instead cleaning the old soil from the entire root ball all at once? I’m getting from your post that putting it in new soil is of high importance if not the highest.

I know the nuances are different between the Northeast and the PNW but I still appreciate all of your insight, thanks again.
 

Tycoss

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Thanks! That is a treasure trove of solid info. @Scorpius thank you as well.

However I’m a bit thrown now… should I be concerned about the completely organic and very dense soil that the tree now resides in? As I noted before the roots all come out of the pot quite easily and vigorous, white tipped roots can be seen beginning to circle the pot so regardless of the soil the tree shows good health at the moment. Which takes precedence, getting it out of the mulch and into proper substrate or waiting for the proper season to repot.

This is a “Sunburst” cultivar and is noted as hardy to zone 4. I’m on the line between zones 4/5 so in the ground it would have no problem but in a pot I feel like the roots could be susceptible to frost damage. This was why I asked about slip potting into a grow box. My thinking was that the additional soil around the root ball would help protect it from winter.

When it does come time for repot do you suggest skipping the usual 1/2 at a time bare rooting strategy and instead cleaning the old soil from the entire root ball all at once? I’m getting from your post that putting it in new soil is of high importance if not the highest.

I know the nuances are different between the Northeast and the PNW but I still appreciate all of your insight, thanks again.
I live on the border of zone 3-4, and my lodgepoles have done fine over winter just dug into the ground up to the rim. I even do this with small pots. Just make sure surrounding soil does not get waterlogged
 

MaciekA

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Waiting for the proper season to repot takes precidence by a mile, at least in my experience. In my mild coastal climate, with nursery trees, I wait for spring, except for one exception: collected trees, where our mild lonnnng gentle descent into a mild winter does work out well for collection. On the other hand your tree won't lose any progress or decline quickly as a result of being in nursery soil between now and spring. It will lose some progress and some winter durability as a result of being repotted now, however. I personally wouldn't risk it in 4/5. If you don't touch the roots this fall, then @Tycoss 's advice applies and you arrive in spring quite safe. This is also doubly true if you leave the canopy untouched this fall as well.
 

yashu

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I’d say that settles it. Overwinter untouched it shall be. That gives me plenty of time to just look at it and ponder design. Next seasons buds have set nicely, it should have decent ramification. I guess my next line of questions will be aimed at the treatment of spring candles on Lodgepoles and if it differs from the general treatment of most other single flush pines.
 

MaciekA

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I'm curious to see how a lodgepole/shore behaves in Maine. In Oregon at least, they seem to start on certain phases of growth much earlier than some pines from other regions of the world. I'd say they are among the first to harden needles and start on next year's buds, for example.
 

yashu

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I'm curious to see how a lodgepole/shore behaves in Maine. In Oregon at least, they seem to start on certain phases of growth much earlier than some pines from other regions of the world. I'd say they are among the first to harden needles and start on next year's buds, for example.
Apparently this cultivar was discovered high altitude in Colorado. Temperature wise could be somewhat similar however moisture is a very different story.
 

PowerTap

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I'm in a very similar situation. Same cultivar, same size, still in the nursery pot. I'm looking at some mica training pots for the spring. Any suggestions for the size? I've always read 2/3 the plant height, but it sounds like I could go smaller?
PXL_20220921_231817842.PORTRAIT.jpg
 

MaciekA

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I have no style advice, but in terms of just horticulture notes, I've have better luck w/ nicer growth in lodgepoles/shores that are in smaller soil volumes than larger ones. Another way to put it would be: I regret some of the overly-large pottings I've put them into in the past, even in development mode. It just delayed the inevitable "a-ha" moment when comparing against smaller-container pottings. I get the impression that contorta thirsts for sun more than it does for water. Comparing against a thirstier species like JBP in like-for-like pot sizes and canopy sizes makes it a bit more obvious when you're monitoring water consumption day by day.

One other thing, since you are both growing variegated pines. I have no experience with variegated contorta (aside from seeing it at landscape nurseries, var. Chief Joseph is truly a sight to behold), however, I have 2 variegated JBPs (var "Shrome Janome" and var "Aocha") and 1 variegated mugo (var "Sunshine"). A couple years back I read a paper that said that the variegated parts of foliage in cultivars such as these perform less photosynthesis than the green parts. My interpretation is that those parts can more easily overheat, since that's one less mechanism out of several that pine needles can use to prevent damage (or a slightly reduced capacity at any rate).

The note I wanted to pass along is this: You may indeed see those parts burn (from overheating) even while the rest of the foliage and plant in general is in excellent health and has no hints of stress. All I have to say is that even though I've seen this happen, it doesn't seem to hurt the tree or even really affect the more variegated-leaning shoots much. It just looks upsetting at first. If you hunt around for marketing pictures of variegated pine cultivars, you'll occasionally spot some photos where they just can't hide the burn. Here is a very good shot of the effect, look closely at the golden apical shoots:


In my anecdotal opinion: We should not fear or overcorrect for this issue as long as the other needles are sharp, firm, lustrous, and as long as we still observe good bud production etc. If I had a variegated lodgepole, I wouldn't hide it from the sun in an attempt to keep those needles pretty, especially in development. Even though my part of Oregon had its hottest summer on record this year, I saw less of this effect this year than last, so it's not always consistent.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the variegation behaves for your lodgepoles. The degree of the effect changes from year to year on my variegated JBPs + mugo.
 

yashu

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Into a proper pot. Positioning was a challenge as the rootball was an awkward shape and I was hesitant to be too aggressive with root work at this time. I like the angle enough so it looks like I’ll be adjusting limb position and doing some further wiring once it recovers from this insult

Photo as purchased
B6958541-6D44-4822-AF11-0A276E9B1AE5.jpeg

Now repotted

24581FAC-38A9-47FF-8E77-747DCFCE4FFF.jpeg
 

Potawatomi13

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I'm in a very similar situation. Same cultivar, same size, still in the nursery pot. I'm looking at some mica training pots for the spring. Any suggestions for the size? I've always read 2/3 the plant height, but it sounds like I could go smaller?
View attachment 458014
This appears as a 5 needle pine🤔. Is this my error?
 
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