yatsubusa elm air layer advice

Dave E

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first off i know this isn't the time of year to do it but it's not too early to think about it and plan for it-i'm assuming early spring.

i've been looking at this elm and i definately feel i should eventually chop it at the blue line,but i'm also thinking of air layering at the black line.
This would be my first attempt at air layering(at least first attempt with some knowledge of how to do it).

how well do these respond to air layering and would this be a good candidate for a first timer?
when would be the time to start? any other advice would be appreciated as well.

or should i leave it alone
yatsu air layer.png
 

sorce

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If they do layer....which I reckon it should....
I'd be inclined to start at the top in year one....consecutively working down in the years...taking all these.
aviary-image-1452002447556.jpeg

In hopes of getting those green branches...
But that root....seems your gonna get better bases layering....

And root cuttings!

Gonna be a FB auction! That's a lot of trees!

Sorce
 

Jester217300

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These are really easy to air layer which means that it would be a good tree to attempt for your first time.

That being said, I wouldn't air layer this. Or at least not yet. I'd work the top and bottom independently with the vision of two future trees for the next 5 years or so. The primary point of air layering is to create an instant bonsai because what you are going to layer off is so good that it has to be its own tree. The secondary purpose is to generate new stock. There are some people who never layer with the intent of making new stock because it is a waste of time for the parent plant.

I'm not against making new stock but in this instance the bottom of the tree isn't finished so layering or chopping will significantly set back the base of your current tree. IMO you need the existing trunk to continue to thicken so that when you do layer you have more interesting taper. You already have reverse taper at the bar branch below your blue line. I'd remove the branch you don't want now and let it heal while you grow the trunk out and keep the new leader cut back. If you layer now within a year of trying to heal the chop wound the leader will have grown to the thickness of the base of the tree and you will have no taper at all for the finished design.

These grow pretty fast so you should be able to accomplish a lot in a short period of time. If you can plant it in the ground or a larger pot that will obviously help with growth.

And of course, if you just want to practice layering, go ahead. I don't want to only be the guy that says "put it in the ground" all the time :)
 

garywood

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Dave, what are your expectations for the finished tree? For me, the tree is young and has one major problem. whether you want a small or larger tree, the large root is and always will be out of proportion. I would address that first and it looks like there is probably more interest in the root grown as a cutting. There is already some nice movement and size is almost as large as the trunk.
 

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Dave E

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yes my plan was to get rid of that large root,and that was exactly my plan-try to grow it as a cutting.
i do want to grow the tree out-at least double if not tripling the trunks girth. but i do see 2 trees in this.

it sounds like i'm better off letting the tree grow as a whole and than layering it.
 

garywood

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yes my plan was to get rid of that large root,and that was exactly my plan-try to grow it as a cutting.
i do want to grow the tree out-at least double if not tripling the trunks girth. but i do see 2 trees in this.

it sounds like i'm better off letting the tree grow as a whole and than layering it.
A tip: with young material try not to fixate on the tree unless you have a specific goal for "the" tree. Instead, keep all of the potential problems at bay. Like removing branches that are too close to each other to prevent knobs and swellings. Build a good base first and it's easier down the road.
 

sorce

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keep all of the potential problems at bay.

That is the gold.

Forgive me....
the bottom of the tree isn't finished
but this base IS Finished IMO.

In the time it would take to fix/heal that big root, your airlayer roots will almost be showable anyway, and Damn sure closer to perfect, along with the tree attached!

On top of that....aren't these "sports" made for wicked small trees?

I see this isn't as "bud crazy" as my Hokkaido.
But managing these lottabudders in a large form, I think it would be an all year everyday task. AKA a giant headache.

I would assume growing/collecting a Siberian or an American elm, or any hybrid, would yield you an impressive large specimen, whose leaves readily reduce.

If we are talking about really maximizing time, potential, and the long run...

I politely think there is more to be considered.

In the mean time....use the gold!
@garywood I feel that is soooo important.
It should have a Japanese name like the fall soil cleaning, and leaves with no buds at the base.

I see so many people here that need to utilize this mentality.
Could we call it PPB?
It really deserves a resource....this is the tedious work busy hands need to be doing, rather than lopping heads!
A simple PPB reference would be wonderful.

Sorce
 

Jester217300

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but this base IS Finished IMO.

Healing the wound from that root will take one growing season, max.

It looks like the trunk is about 0.5" thick. If that's finished for you, fine. It's not for me but that's just my opinion.
 

sorce

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Healing the wound from that root will take one growing season, max.

It looks like the trunk is about 0.5" thick. If that's finished for you, fine. It's not for me but that's just my opinion.

Please....I don't wish to argue...only conversate....

As it would be then.....those new roots from the cut big one....are on the same barking schedule as all the airlayer roots.

However, the airlayer roots will be even, without the other roots from the back (unseen yet)to grow just as large and take over, creating the same problem. Then you still have the reverse taper 2 inches above there as well. So that would still have to be dealt with.

IMO.....you can get that top airlayer in my Madden to finished faster than the base of this tree.

Small of course....but like I said...a different species of elm could yield a better barked big tree sooner anyway!

Still much to consider....if we are truly maximizing potential from every angle.

Sorce
 

Bonsai Nut

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One minor thing to keep in mind when air-layering elms. You will lose about 1" of the tree when you layer. So instead of drawing a line, think about a 1" segment being removed. On a larger tree, you might lose closer to 2".
 

sorce

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This might start an argument, but it only will for those who do not seek the deeper understanding. This is Bonsai @fredman style. But it is real.

I'm just being efficient with my words.

If it wasn't for this part,:rolleyes: this part itself would be true, but this part being here, negates the truth of the initial statement. Yes?

Simply, "I'm not arguing", would have been efficient, let alone sufficient!

The quoted, in this unevolved method of communication, reads as argumentative, Because of the sufficiency of "I'm not arguing".
Odd yes?

Anyway...the important stuff....that relates to bonsai for newbs...is what this made me think of.....

Well, one....efficiency of words does not communicate correctly here.

But more importantly, two...

The fact, that there Is No efficiency of thought.

I'm trying to come up with the word for it but simply can't...
The word that describes the nonsense that is....

Efficiency of Thought.

Being....efficiency of thought works against itself. Efficiency of Thought translates to not thinking.

This is the first time these things blew up in my head....because of my high level of concern for efficiency, and my beliefs of deep thinking, coupled with thoughts of efficiency of words....which are also extremely important to me.....

The rant continues,
this is not an elevator sales pitch....no need for efficiency of words...it actually miscommunicates here, and will until we consciously evolve.

You know...people wonder how I get away with this.....running around seemingly assing about, talking shit....

But that's where using this form of communication wisely comes into play.
It's why I get so mad at Adair for not seeing the "in theory" part. The readers reading is a whole nother story.
But if I have something to say that is really important, and a positive contribution, I take the time to go back and correct everything that needs correcting to be understood by the reader. Correctly.

Of course there are still those times nothing is understood, that's on purpose too, only for those who get it. Who are here for a deeper understanding of life, as it pertains to the passion that we share. Not like old sheep sacrificer dude.
(I added that paragraph for the person who thinks my editing is detrimental, they are fuming right now)

Anyway, the moral of the story for our newbs......

Think Deeply, Take the Time it Takes to think, and guess what, you will have plenty of time to succeed with your trees.

And the Moral for all.....

If you give a shit at all about "benefiting from this site", "not having to see BS", "tired of the bickering", Take some time to concisely evolve in this form of communication. Help me get us to the next level. Go back and don't stop thinking about this until it makes sense to you. When you get it...go ahead and hit the like button...I'm trying to get to a million, for the groupies.

For real.....It's not "Imperial Masterpiece" that should be judged. Its ones level of "Give a Fuck". I give a Fuck.

Of course, that would be taken better if it was "care", but of that!.....

I don't give a fuck!

Happy New Year People!
To our future!

Sorce
 

fredman

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If you give a shit at all about "benefiting from this site", "not having to see BS", "tired of the bickering", Take some time to concisely evolve in this form of communication. Help me get us to the next level. Go back and don't stop thinking about this until it makes sense to you.
Very well said Sorceman. This great site decerves to be taken to the next level. It actually is there already...waiting for its members to catch up. Efficiency of Thought is basically all it needs....
Right now I feel like hitting more than one like...much more...
Here's to anticipating a great year here... CHEERS :)
 
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