Year 2 Experiment Help Request

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I dipped my toes into bonsai the fall of 2020 and been running experiments that I've been using for learning and figuring out what I like. If I may I'd like your thoughts on a couple of the trees I've been working with and perhaps provide recommendations. The first is one of the first trees I ever touched and when I repotted it noticed this "crossed legs" look of the nebari (this the tagging "Lady"). If I keep working this tree should I correct this or is it acceptable. I've kind of just let it grow for 2 years and wonder if it is ready for it's second styling? Or...mark it down as a lesson's learned and retire it?

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This second one was most likely a mistake because after I bought it I read that there is almost zero chance for back budding. I've removed branches and tried to find a better training pot but as you can see I have a lot of service roots to clean up. I'm honestly still not sure there is a bonsai tree here or if it is just wishful thinking. Is there anything you'd do to improve or mark it down as a lesson's learned and retire it?

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This third is a burning bush that I loved love to see continue. It's new grow is always a challenge because it is very stiff and straight. If I keep working it when is the best time to wire the new growth? I did it early last season and ended up really marking up the bark.

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Another buring bush that I REALLY screwed up the first year but after a heavy cutback found pretty good improvement. This one though seems to produce MUCH larger leaves. Can that be controlled in any way?

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The only other question I have is that I styled and potted this a couple of years ago but forgot to write down what type of tree this is. I'd also like to know when might be a good time for it's second styling. Any help at all would be most welcome. I have many others but most are just plain too young or already retired. Thanks in advance for anyone that has advice or can offer insight. Cheers!

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Wires_Guy_wires

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The only other question I have is that I styled and potted this a couple of years ago but forgot to write down what type of tree this is. I'd also like to know when might be a good time for it's second styling. Any help at all would be most welcome. I have many others but most are just plain too young or already retired. Thanks in advance for anyone that has advice or can offer insight. Cheers!

View attachment 437547
My juniper sense says it's a juniperus sabina tamariscifolia (possibly var tam no blight) or otherwise possibly a scopulorum.
Scopulorum has a bitter cat piss hint in the smell, whereas sabina doesn't.
The ID I provide is based on foliage type and color, the trunk knuckles make me think it's more likely to be a sabina tamariscifolia.
 
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My juniper sense says it's a juniperus sabina tamariscifolia (possibly var tam no blight) or otherwise possibly a scopulorum.
Scopulorum has a bitter cat piss hint in the smell, whereas sabina doesn't.
The ID I provide is based on foliage type and color, the trunk knuckles make me think it's more likely to be a sabina tamariscifolia.
I'll give it a smell thanks!
 

sorce

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This second one was most likely a mistake because after I bought it I read that there is almost zero chance for back budding. I've removed branches and tried to find a better training pot but as you can see I have a lot of service roots to clean up. I'm honestly still not sure there is a bonsai tree here or if it is just wishful thinking. Is there anything you'd do to improve or mark it down as a lesson's learned and retire it?

View attachment 437542

They lying.

When did you trim it? How?

That's kinda rhetorical, I don't know when I cut mine, but I reckon we can figure out what works.

I haven't kept one long enough to get to a "safe" point of attempting to cut back and resort to backbuds, but they definitely occur.

I think between people pussyfooting around correct hard cuts, thinking interior needs light to backbud, believing BS people think they know, and not leaving enough correct foliage on the outside to draw that energy to backbud..

Lotta failures, but anything is possible.

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Sorce
 
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They lying.

When did you trim it? How?

That's kinda rhetorical, I don't know when I cut mine, but I reckon we can figure out what works.

I haven't kept one long enough to get to a "safe" point of attempting to cut back and resort to backbuds, but they definitely occur.

I think between people pussyfooting around correct hard cuts, thinking interior needs light to backbud, believing BS people think they know, and not leaving enough correct foliage on the outside to draw that energy to backbud..

Lotta failures, but anything is possible.

Sorce
This give me hope. I did the initial cutback in fall of 2020. I did an additional thinning last year removing a large number of branches; some major (cut paste for major). Based on your experience if you think it could thrive with another 30% mass reduction I'll give that a try. I'm also willing to hard cut as I have some reverse tapper that I need to remove anyway. It's either that or dermal to smooth I suspect...
 

sorce

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cutback in fall of 2020

I definitely think fall is a time when it will just put more energy into present buds, since it knows it will be sleeping and not have time to both make buds and energize them.

I call healthy nursery trees 100.
You took yours to about a 40, and it's come back to about 50-55.
I try to stay above an 80 for backbuds, well, anything actually, if we remain around 80 almost anything is possible and no design is lost....
..... if we "smartprune".

I'd want to see you back above 80 before cutting it again, maybe dipping to 60, but you'd want to be back to 80 before fall.
So since you gained 10-15 after one year, but with another slight trim, you can probably gain 20 points a year if left uncut. Which puts cutting again at about 2 years.

Much of this trouble comes from most of the literature being on, or for, finished trees. There isn't much literature on building things from nursery conifers. So folks either make cuts so drastic(far below 80) they never regain the energy needed for backbudding, or they make the constant exterior "pussyfooting" cuts, which doesn't send a strong enough signal in to get buds closer to the trunk.
Seems you've done both. Not to rag, but to let you know now you know so you don't have to give up on this. Of course, an after x-mas special on these could prove a good reason to start over! Though the tripleness of this unit is quite dope.
The trunks are decently different sizes and it stands proudly, so it's worth working out.

If there was a book, it would simply read, "build to cut, don't cut to build".

We can build entire future trees higher than 80, while sacrifice stuff has the whole tree at a 200. A 120 cutback is then safe. Build to Cut.

Cutting to build keeps us below 80 or worse.

On anything initially and in this one's 1.5 - 3 year future....

Depending on height, this is where I would make cuts, but not all at once of course, to stay above 80. For Taller at reds, for shorter at yellow. The idea is to remove as much growth as possible from far away, to send a large signal to what's lower to make buds. I reckon the closer you are to 100, the closer to directly after spring growth you could cut is, and never after the Summer Solstice.
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Since your Largest trunk needs the largest first branch, it should be cut year one. Medium next, smallest last.
The catch 22 being, as soon as you cut the largest one, the smalls are going to catch up in size and you don't want that. Since you can't cut more off the smalls to compensate (-80), this must be planned for and prevented. If that means working on improving the size differential for a few years, well, taking longer never hurt anything!

Sorce
 
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Depending on height, this is where I would make cuts, but not all at once of course, to stay above 80. For Taller at reds, for shorter at yellow. The idea is to remove as much growth as possible from far away, to send a large signal to what's lower to make buds. I reckon the closer you are to 100, the closer to directly after spring growth you could cut is, and never after the Summer Solstice.

Sorce
This has been more helpful then anything I've read so thank you!!!

From bottom of the trunk to highest point it is currently ~18" so would that be small or large? I'm going to follow your recommendations on this one.
 
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I call healthy nursery trees 100.
You took yours to about a 40, and it's come back to about 50-55.
I'd want to see you back above 80 before cutting it again, maybe dipping to 60, but you'd want to be back to 80 before fall.
So since you gained 10-15 after one year, but with another slight trim, you can probably gain 20 points a year if left uncut. Which puts cutting again at about 2 years.
I just reread to make sure I understood and I think this indicates I'm 2 years out before making cutback to the lines you pointed out. Correct? Basically, feed it and leave it till 2024.
 

Paradox

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Another buring bush that I REALLY screwed up the first year but after a heavy cutback found pretty good improvement. This one though seems to produce MUCH larger leaves. Can that be controlled in any way?

Yes it can through promoting greater ramification of your branches and more branches
First you need to decide if the trunk is as big as you ultimately want it.
If you want it bigger then you need to let the tree grow and not worry about reducing anything at this time

Keep in mind, Burning Bush are one flush trees so you dont want to completely remove all the foliage but they will back bud on old wood readily.

If you like the trunk as it is, let the tree grow then cut back the branches to one or two nodes in late Late September or October where you would like a fork in the branch. You can wait until after the leaves drop if you want to enjoy the fall color.

Next spring, you should have 2 buds on the end of each branch that form leaves and start to grow.
Let these grow out and then cut them back again to one or two nodes.

This approach has worked for me with my Burning bush trees
What I havent tried yet is pinching them like we do with maples to reduce internode length
I probably should experiment with that
 
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If you want it bigger then you need to let the tree grow and not worry about reducing anything at this time
It' almost to height, maybe another season or two.
If you like the trunk as it is, let the tree grow then cut back the branches to one or two nodes in late Late September or October where you would like a fork in the branch. You can wait until after the leaves drop if you want to enjoy the fall color.
Next spring, you should have 2 buds on the end of each branch that form leaves and start to grow.
Let these grow out and then cut them back again to one or two nodes.
Okay, I've marked this in the book and will try this once it is to height. Thanks!
 
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